Damage Types

[Gatac]

Oh. Well, actually, he did fail those saves - I thought the results of electrical damage failure supercede the normal subdual rules, which made the PC's stungun suck mightily. It just made no sense to me to nauseate someone you're knocking out anyway. Should teach me not to make assumptions and ask for clarification instead.

While this is indeed a soothing clarification, that doesn't change one fundamental problem: as long as the character who's being hit makes those saves, he doesn't suffer any effects other than a rising subdual total. If he does fail, he gets hit by all three effects (KO, nauseated, Init loss) at once. Further, the KO prescribed for when electrical damage sends a character reeling is, in my estimation, not very useful. It just takes too long to wear down Init this way.

Again, to be fair, the NPC this was tried on started the experiment with 20+ Init and was bumped to within an inch of getting the reeling result. A more reasonable Init score would surely lead to a KO after two to three shocks, but still - I was expecting the stungun's good-looking damage code to lead to a reasonably fast "lights out", and it didn't quite deliver, which was especially bitter as the PC had packed it for the express purpose of taking out enemies quickly.

Gatac

[Morgenstern]

While this is indeed a soothing clarification, that doesn't change one fundamental problem: as long as the character who's being hit makes those saves, he doesn't suffer any effects other than a rising subdual total.

Its that professional courtesy thing again. Try out 2-3 thugs with stun guns zapping a lone player and see if they think it's insufficently awful . Heck, 1 might be enough with good rolls. Players and special NPCs play by the same rules, and those rules are expressly designed to avoid instant wipe-outs. One round combats with the principle opponents are rather dull, even if players crave them. By the same token, getting TPK'd in 12 seconds is not fun for the players either.

I was expecting the stungun's good-looking damage code to lead to a reasonably fast "lights out", and it didn't quite deliver, which was especially bitter as the PC had packed it for the express purpose of taking out enemies quickly.

*shrug* It's lets you take people alive which is already a hell of a perk. Subdual damage offers a different method of bringing someone down. One which can get around some of the best "tank"-style defensive builds out there (AP (X) drills through most brick strategies). And that raw damage number is rather high, meaning it eats standard characters alive. But, its NOT supposed to be fundamentally better/faster than all other (lethal) options - unconcious is effectively dead where gamers are involved so invalidating the entire wounds/vitality system is not a goal that players are gonna find all that easy .

[Medwyn]

The harm inflicted by electrical damage is always subdual.

Aply any AP first, then if the attack is causing subdual damage, double any remaining Damage reduction.

Great Thanks!

That clears things up greatly for me

[Crafty_Alex]

I always find it amusing that people think of subdual damage as "weak." Morg and I have actually had this discussion recently, particularly regarding the results when my players decided to metagame my Big Bad (Lord Thunder, a Channeler styled NPC armed with a maul). Seeing the maul "only" inflicts subdual damage, the Charming Master Channeler 4 decides to use his mighty Charisma-base Martial Arts on the big fella in an aerial melee fight - pretty cool in and of itself - until said big bad uses some All-Out Attack with that maul of his. WHAM - 27 points of subdual damage from the first hit not only knocked the Channeler out cold for 10 minutes (and made him VERY nervous about suffering any more subdual for the rest of the adventure...and the week afterwards), but made the player realize that Lord Thunder could have strolled over casually and Coup de Grace'd him anytime he wanted. We both developed a newfound respect for subdual damage at that point

So lesson is - subdual very rarely kills people outright...but its ability to set up the kill via Coup de Grace/falling/crashing/been flung off a cliff is quite terrifying and must be respected.

[TheAuldGrump]

Heh - in my game the PCs worry more when the bad guys are dealing subdual damage - it means they are looking to take prisoners. Not all the players were in the game the last time the baddies took prisoners, but the ones who were let the others know what was left of the prisoner by the time they reached him. (Interrogation that involved some very nasty rolls, and some goblins with pointy things. The goblins broke him.)

And the PCs are getting downright leery of Stress Damage too.

The Auld Grump

[Morgenstern]

Funny you should mention that. I just turned around my comments on Fragile Minds (the Table of Sproing) and accompanying goodness. Once Alex pulls on his tiger-suit and pops claws to defend his cub, I think we'll be ready for final edits.

...Assuming Pat's brain hasn't been melted into salad dressing by the strugles with a couple of for-print products we're all looking forward to comming out.

[Crafty_Pat]

...Assuming Pat's brain hasn't been melted into salad dressing by the strugles with a couple of for-print products we're all looking forward to comming out.

Oh, it has, but it's still a thick Blue Cheese, or maybe Thousand Island. I'll be worried if it sloshes down to Italian and starts to separate...