Damage Types

[Medwyn]

If I have an Electrical attack and I hit a NPC wearing armour that gives DR, does the NPC double his DR as Electrical Damage does subdual damage, or doesn't he as it's Electrical Damage (which is dealt as subdual).

In other words when does Electrical damage (or anyother damage type) become subdual damage?
Does it at all become subdual or is it only considered Subdual once the damage is done?

I hope my question is clear.

[Gatac]

Actually, could someone clarify Electrical damage in general?

Gatac

[Toccata]

IIRC (don't have my book with me), electrical damage is subdual by default, but can be converted to lethal normally, though it's got a few unusual rules for both the subdual version and the lethal version.

[Medwyn]

IIRC (don't have my book with me), electrical damage is subdual by default, but can be converted to lethal normally, though it's got a few unusual rules for both the subdual version and the lethal version.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't quite clear in my question.
I know Electrical Damage does Subdual damage but when does it become Subdual?
Is counted as Subdual as soon as it is done or is it subdual after DR and resistance etc?

[Psion]

I think it's always subdual damage (well, unless converted... though the word "always" makes it questionable whether you could convert it, in the real world, electricity will fry flesh quite easily.)

It's not specified when you apply the Armor Piercing from the electrical damage, but I would think you would apply it first. So if you do 5 points of electrical damage to someone with DR 5/-, the AP reduces it to 0/- and the target takes all the damage.

[Toccata]

I'm confidant that electrical damage can be converted to lethal, since it has specific rules regarding when it deals lethal damage.

I believe the damage reduction is applied first, then any left over would be doubly effective, since it's against the subdual damage.

[Medwyn]

I think it's always subdual damage (well, unless converted... though the word "always" makes it questionable whether you could convert it, in the real world, electricity will fry flesh quite easily.)

It's not specified when you apply the Armor Piercing from the electrical damage, but I would think you would apply it first. So if you do 5 points of electrical damage to someone with DR 5/-, the AP reduces it to 0/- and the target takes all the damage.

I'm confidant that electrical damage can be converted to lethal, since it has specific rules regarding when it deals lethal damage.

I believe the damage reduction is applied first, then any left over would be doubly effective, since it's against the subdual damage.

I've got no doubt it can be converted, as I'm sure Morg talked about it when dealing with Spellbound on the previous boards.
I'm wondering when Electrical damage becomes subdual, which then as Psion pointed out brings up when do you apply Armour Piercing.
I was thinking you'd apply AP first too, I'm sure there is a ruling on this somewhere, can someone point me to it?

[Toccata]

I'll go searching for it as soon as I get home.

[Antilles]

I might be way off course here, since it's getting late and I'm not really thinking straight...

Isn't all damage either subdual or lethal? I mean, the only difference between subdual damage from a punch and subdual damage from electricity is that the electrical damage has some extra qualities attached (like armour-piercing, new critical injury, stress, etc).

EDIT: If I'm thinking correctly, the answer to your question would be that the DR doubles, since the damage is subdual with Electrical qualities, one of which is to reduce the DR.

[Toccata]

I might be way off course here, since it's getting late and I'm not really thinking straight...

Isn't all damage either subdual or lethal? I mean, the only difference between subdual damage from a punch and subdual damage from electricity is that the electrical damage has some extra qualities attached (like armour-piercing, new critical injury, stress, etc).

Yeah.

I think they're asking when the "DR is doubled vs subdual damage" thing kicks in.

[Antilles]

Uh, presumably after the armour-piercing effect has taken place, since the other way around wouldn't make much sense (pierce the armor after you've bypassed it?). Checking the good book (or .pdf, in this case), there isn't any specific mention of timing under the Damage Reduction heading, but on the other side of the page, under NPC damage saves, the following is written:

If the damage inflicted possesses the armor-piercing quality, the NPC’s Damage save bonus decreases by the same amount before the Damage save is made (e.g. if the damage inflicted possesses the AP (4) quality, a Damage save bonus of +9 becomes +5).

Which kinda indicates that armour-piercing effects happen first, I think.

[Toccata]

Damage reduction is twice as effective against subdual damage
(e.g. with DR 3/—, a character ignores the first 6 points of
subdual damage).

I'd say that since it says "twice as effective" rather than "is doubled", armor piercing, which reduces the amount of DR or damage save bonus by the number, would reduce the number that becomes "twice as effective". In other words, AP first, then the effects of it being subdual.

[Morgenstern]

The harm inflicted by electrical damage is always subdual.

Aply any AP first, then if the attack is causing subdual damage, double any remaining Damage reduction.

[Gatac]

The thing that irked me about Electrical damage was some phrasing about the Fort save failures nauseating the target. Does this supercede the straight up Unconsciousness normal subdual damage can inflict? It kinda doesn't make sense to nauseate someone you knock out anyway, but if it doesn't, then it actually becomes really difficult to knock someone out with Electrical damage.

Actual play: one PC hits a Special NPC with a stungun, four times, boosting him well into the top Subdual Damage treshold but not knocking him out (though it does get his Init down to 10 or so). Fed up with this, he says "I punch him", inflicting straight up subdual - which promptly sends the bad guy into coma for a week.

Please tell me I was doing it wrong.

Gatac

[Morgenstern]

The thing that irked me about Electrical damage was some phrasing about the Fort save failures nauseating the target. Does this supercede the straight up Unconsciousness normal subdual damage can inflict?

Lets have a look.

Electrical damage is subdual, not lethal. Each time a character fails a Fortitude save to resist subdual damage inflicted by electricity, he becomes nauseated for 1d6 rounds and suffers a penalty to his Initiative Count equal to 1/2 the electrical damage (rounded down). If this sends the character reeling (see page 342), it instead knocks him unconscious for a number of minutes equal to the amount by which his Initiative Count drops below 0 (e.g. if the character’s Initiative Count drops to –3, he falls unconscious for 3 minutes).

All of that is in addition to the normal consequences of subdual damage. So, if they aren't knocked out, theres still a fair chance they're screwed up by it.

It kinda doesn't make sense to nauseate someone you knock out anyway.

You can be nauseated and unconcious, it just doesn't make a lot of difference from unconcious .

Actual play: one PC hits a Special NPC with a stungun, four times, boosting him well into the top Subdual Damage treshold but not knocking him out (though it does get his Init down to 10 or so). Fed up with this, he says "I punch him", inflicting straight up subdual - which promptly sends the bad guy into coma for a week.

Please tell me I was doing it wrong.

Why? Guy got the snot zapped out of him and was hanging on by a thread when the PC popped him in the face. That he held on that long was sheer luck (a series of good saves by the sound of it). That it was a punch rather than one more hit with a tazer amounts to pure chance - either would have dropped him like a sack of bricks once the save was failed. Even if he wasn't unconcious or nauseated by having his subdual loaded up to the gills, he certainly wasn't healthy or happy at that point... At best he was 'coping' with what amounts to some extremely perilous rough treatment, not 'shrugging it off'. Which is pretty much the same courtesy the system offers players who make a bunch of good saves in a row . Put 40 points of subdual on a PC but no other negative effects and see if that player thinks his character is 'fine' or has any desire to hang around opponents that favor the pummel action ...