Russia goes to War.

[ThunderMonkey]

*climbs out of his tree*  Okay.  I was trying to sit on the sidelines for this one, but everyone seems set on debating the what and not the why. 

First off, not about Oil.  Or, at least, not the "major" reason.  Russia has enough Oil control that it has a revitalized military, so much so, it's restarted it's national long distance bomber fly-bys of the Kremlin as a National Honor / Show of Force / Show that Mother Russia is back on her feet.

No pun intended... I'm sticking to my guns that it's about oil flow and the control of oil. It's one of the reasons we're (US) not jumping fast to drill our resources off shore. If the world's supply dries out... then we'll have the remaining supply.

China and India have become big oil consumers and Russia is in strict competition with those two for oil resources and supply flows.

Aside from my own beliefs... I chuckle every time I hear one of the politicans utter the phrase that you're not supposed to invade a country and install your own government in the 21st Century. I swear, the neo-Conservatives in D.C. have the memory capability of a goldfish high on crack.

[Krensky]

You really have no concept of international diplomacy, do you?

Given the effort your fellow poster is putting into supporting the discussion, do you think this is a factual inquiry the moderators should overlook? It looks sort of like personal attack to me.

While it was not intended as so, in the clear light morning it is a mild argumentum ad personam. I would like to apologize to Mischef. I was in a less then pleasant mood last night for a number of reasons, most unrelated to this topic or issue, and some of that appears to have leaked through. I have edited my original comment to eliminate the argumentum ad personam.

I have nothing further of substance to this and have already stuck my foot in my mouth, I will excuse myself from this topic.

[OverNinja]

There are two oil pipes and one gas pipe running through Georgia.
- South Caucasus gas pipeline
- BTC (Baku-Tbilisi-Cheyhan) pipeline
- WREP (Western Route Export Pipeline)
There have been plans to expand the BTC to Europe.

All this is outside Russian control.

[ThunderMonkey]

There are two oil pipes and one gas pipe running through Georgia.
- South Caucasus gas pipeline
- BTC (Baku-Tbilisi-Cheyhan) pipeline
- WREP (Western Route Export Pipeline)
There have been plans to expand the BTC to Europe.

All this is outside Russian control.

The pipelines were used to bring Caspian Sea oil to the West. (Well, I think it was at least just the BTC pipeline, but I can't recall without looking it up again). The US helped build it, we also trained the Georgia military and equipped them as well. We had military trainers in Georgia when the fighting started.

[TheTSKoala]

There are two oil pipes and one gas pipe running through Georgia.
- South Caucasus gas pipeline
- BTC (Baku-Tbilisi-Cheyhan) pipeline
- WREP (Western Route Export Pipeline)
There have been plans to expand the BTC to Europe.

All this is outside Russian control.

The pipelines were used to bring Caspian Sea oil to the West. (Well, I think it was at least just the BTC pipeline, but I can't recall without looking it up again). The US helped build it, we also trained the Georgia military and equipped them as well. We had military trainers in Georgia when the fighting started.

Still do.

[MilitiaJim]

If the Russian government announced that the sky was blue, I would look out the window and check.  The Russian government, for the last ever, has been run by jerks.  The Georgians are just the casualties in the opening volley of a new Cold War.

Like China and Iran, Russia could do for some regime change.

[Morgenstern]

Given the effort your fellow poster is putting into supporting the discussion, do you think this is a factual inquiry the moderators should overlook? It looks sort of like personal attack to me.

While it was not intended as so, in the clear light morning it is a mild argumentum ad personam. I would like to apologize to Mischef. I was in a less then pleasant mood last night for a number of reasons, most unrelated to this topic or issue, and some of that appears to have leaked through. I have edited my original comment to eliminate the argumentum ad personam.

As Mischief sits near me when he posts and didn't bring it up, I'm certain no great offense was taken. I personally am intrigued with some of the discussion and insight being brought to this topic and hope it can continue in the ussual civil fashion that we all enjoy on these boards. Its a topic that could EASILY spiral into something nasty. This was only you moderator calling for an awareness check.

No harm, no foul .

[Falkus]

The Georgians are just the casualties in the opening volley of a new Cold War.

Well maybe Georgia shouldn't have invaded South Ossetia.

[MilitiaJim]

Well maybe Georgia shouldn't have invaded South Ossetia.

How do you invade a part of your own country?  That would be like Canada invading Quebec.

Perhaps you could wonder if this would have happened if Kosovo had not separated from Serbia.  (Hint:  No.)

[Bill Whitmore]

Well maybe Georgia shouldn't have invaded South Ossetia.

How do you invade a part of your own country?  That would be like Canada invading Quebec.

Same way the U.S. invaded South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, and Texas after they decided to leave the US.

[Falkus]

How do you invade a part of your own country?  That would be like Canada invading Quebec.

It may not be an independent nation de jure, but it is an independant nation de facto.

[TheTSKoala]

The Georgians are just the casualties in the opening volley of a new Cold War.

Well maybe Georgia shouldn't have invaded South Ossetia.

And maybe cops shouldn't shoot at people who are armed and dangerous.  Seriously, if there was no repercussion for a rogue part of a nation, EVERYONE would do it.  You would have no USA, no Canada, no China.  You would just 5,000,000 little city-states declaring they're #1.

[Morgenstern]

Well maybe Georgia shouldn't have invaded South Ossetia.

How do you invade a part of your own country?  That would be like Canada invading Quebec.

Seems like we've spent a lot of time disuading China from invading Taiwan. There are definitely levels of success when it comes to parting ways with your former masters.

[Mischief]

And maybe cops shouldn't shoot at people who are armed and dangerous.  Seriously, if there was no repercussion for a rogue part of a nation, EVERYONE would do it.  You would have no USA, no Canada, no China.  You would just 5,000,000 little city-states declaring they're #1.

Cops certianly should not shot bystanders trying to maintain a safe distance from possible crossfire. Investigations by the HRW suggest that Georgians targetted families hiding in basements. That is not law enforcement. That is murder.

The United States are so named, because they are fifty states (each with its own constitution) that have chosen to unite under under a single national government. South Ossetia did not get a choice.

Georgia territory was determined by the land claimed by Georgia when they were annexed by the USSR in 1921. South Ossetia was among the lands it claimed when it declared itself independant following the Russian Revolution, despite the fact that South Ossetia declared its own independance. When Georgia declared its independance, South Ossetia chose to hold its own elections which Georgia declared invalid. In 2006, South Ossetia held elections again. Under the scutiny of 34 international observers, 99% of the South Ossetians (with a 95% turnout) voted for independance. Because of lack of ethic Georgians and approval of the elections by Georgia, the vote was not recognised by the international community.

[Mischief]

While it was not intended as so, in the clear light morning it is a mild argumentum ad personam. I would like to apologize to Mischef. I was in a less then pleasant mood last night for a number of reasons, most unrelated to this topic or issue, and some of that appears to have leaked through. I have edited my original comment to eliminate the argumentum ad personam.

I have nothing further of substance to this and have already stuck my foot in my mouth, I will excuse myself from this topic.

There is no need to apologized. Some heat and frustation is expected during political discussions, especially after spending time trying to do a little fact finding. To be honest I was more annoyed at Big Softy Scott for getting involved.