Russia goes to War.

[Aragathor]

Well both are evil, but in different ways.
Russia always had great evil leaders.
China keeps it's evil hidden, few people now about the police "arresting" people who have been tagged for involuntary organ extraction.

Russia right now is being led by right-wing nationalists. A very bad situation if you are a small country with a russian minority, which is true for every ex-soviet state.

I wonder if the russians will try to invade estonia. After the fall of the soviet union thay lost the long range radars built there.

[Mischief]

Russia's true motives are irrellivent. George was stupid and gave Russia an invitation to invade as soon as they choose to voilate the rules of war during the opening ceremony of the Olympics. Georgia raise the "white flag" when they called for the a ceasefire and they violated the rules war when they murdered 1400 cilivilians three hours after they called for that ceasefire. I knew how Russia was going to react when I saw the headlines.

Under the 1977 Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 (Protocol I) there is a specific prohibition on perfidy:

“ Article 37.-Prohibition of perfidy
1. It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy:
(a) The feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender;
(b) The feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness;
(c) The feigning of civilian, non-combatant status; and
(d) The feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict.
2. Ruses of war are not prohibited. Such ruses are acts which are intended to mislead an adversary or to induce him to act recklessly but which infringe no rule of international law applicable in armed conflict and which are not perfidious because they do not invite the confidence of an adversary with respect to protection under that law. The following are examples of such ruses: the use of camouflage, decoys, mock operations and misinformation.
 ”

Perfidy was part of the customary laws of war long before the prohibition of perfidy was included in Protocol I. For example in the Hague IV: Laws and Customs of War on Land; (October 18, 1907) Article 23 includes:

“ In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden - ... To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army; ... To make improper use of a flag of truce, of the national flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy, as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention; ...

If Georgia wishes to continue to be a democracy, their leadership needs find themselves successors and then offer themselves to the UN to be tried, and hope for a favorable interpretation of the rules of war.

If I were making decisions for Russia I would ask for the other former soviet states to take over peacekeeping duties in Georgia and watch as a more Russian friendly candidate is elected to be Georgia's next president.

[Aragathor]

Georgia raise the "white flag" when they called for the a ceasefire and they violated the rules war when they murdered 1400 cilivilians three hours after they called for that ceasefire.

Can you quote an independently reliable source on that one?

[Mischief]

This certainly qualifies as a ceasefire called for in order to negotiate.
http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=18934

Unfortunately, I cannot quote a reliable source on the number of victims, since there are no reliable sources on either side of the conflict. The number and timetable are from what I remembered of the iniatial article I read on the 8th. While I have found multiple articles talking about the 1400, I have not found the article that specified the three hours.

http://www.undemocracy.com/securitycouncil/meeting_5951
http://www.undemocracy.com/securitycouncil/meeting_5952

[ThunderMonkey]

I don't care how both sides tend to paint it... it's about oil or the control of the oil flow in that region.

That's what Iraq and Afghanistan is about (and ultimately Iran if McSame gets into office).

[Forcegypsy]

Russia's true motives are irrellivent. George was stupid and gave Russia an invitation to invade as soon as they choose to voilate the rules of war during the opening ceremony of the Olympics. Georgia raise the "white flag" when they called for the a ceasefire and they violated the rules war when they murdered 1400 cilivilians three hours after they called for that ceasefire. I knew how Russia was going to react when I saw the headlines.

Under the 1977 Protocol I Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 (Protocol I) there is a specific prohibition on perfidy:

“ Article 37.-Prohibition of perfidy
1. It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy:
(a) The feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender;
(b) The feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness;
(c) The feigning of civilian, non-combatant status; and
(d) The feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict.
2. Ruses of war are not prohibited. Such ruses are acts which are intended to mislead an adversary or to induce him to act recklessly but which infringe no rule of international law applicable in armed conflict and which are not perfidious because they do not invite the confidence of an adversary with respect to protection under that law. The following are examples of such ruses: the use of camouflage, decoys, mock operations and misinformation.
 ”

Perfidy was part of the customary laws of war long before the prohibition of perfidy was included in Protocol I. For example in the Hague IV: Laws and Customs of War on Land; (October 18, 1907) Article 23 includes:

“ In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden - ... To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army; ... To make improper use of a flag of truce, of the national flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy, as well as the distinctive badges of the Geneva Convention; ...

If Georgia wishes to continue to be a democracy, their leadership needs find themselves successors and then offer themselves to the UN to be tried, and hope for a favorable interpretation of the rules of war.

If I were making decisions for Russia I would ask for the other former soviet states to take over peacekeeping duties in Georgia and watch as a more Russian friendly candidate is elected to be Georgia's next president.

My take on it also. Monumental stupidity by Georgian leadership leading to criminal errors in judgment. Nevermind the propaganda and the woe is me complaining to international bodies with no real power to effect the situation. I'll see how everything shakes out eventually, but Georgians IMO should toss that leadership. They've managed to fritter away the Georgia that was and what replaces it is basically up to Russia. Sad really.

[Aragathor]

Sorry Mischief but the Humans Right Watch doubts the whole "1400 massacre". And I know that the only side claiming it happend is Russia, an unreliable source at best.

Remember, both sides use propaganda to harm the other side, so take every "dramatic" report about massacres witha grain of salt.

[TheTSKoala]

1,400 civilians being massacred would cause a UN hissy fit, the US to start spouting off about sanctions and Russia would use it as an excuse to simply crush Georgia, because world support would be on it's side.  So, I'll take that report with the same non-sensical reporting like Elvis is the next VP.

[Mischief]

While HRW may doubt the number of cilivians killed, as originally presented to the UN by Russia, they do confirm the use of indiscriminate weapons upon a population and direct tank fire upon areas commonly used by civilians as shelter.
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/russia19620.htm

Furthermore, those numbers were not disputed by any of the ambassadors present (including the Georgian abassador) at the US securtiy Council meeting where Russia presented those numbers.
http://www.undemocracy.com/securitycouncil/meeting_5952

As for cries of outrage... The only people the US condemned prior to Russia opening fire, were the South Ossetians. The South Ossetian appearently missed a meeting. Understandably, China also showed outrage... at the violation of the Olympic Truce.
http://www.undemocracy.com/securitycouncil/meeting_5951

[Aragathor]

While HRW may doubt the number of cilivians killed, as originally presented to the UN by Russia, they do confirm the use of indiscriminate weapons upon a population and direct tank fire upon areas commonly used by civilians as shelter.

HRW states that both sides have hurt civilians. Not Georgia alone.

Furthermore, those numbers were not disputed by any of the ambassadors present (including the Georgian abassador) at the US securtiy Council meeting where Russia presented those numbers.

First, most responses were simple voicings of "concern".
Second, the Georgian ambassador did not state how many georgian victims of russians and ossetians there were, but he reminded everyone of "ethnic cleansings"being perpetrated in south ossetia against georgians.

The South Ossetian appearently missed a meeting.

South Ossetia is an unrecognized state/territory.


Both sides are "dirty". Blaming only Georgia whitewashes the fact that Russia had no right to cross the georgian border.

[Krensky]

While HRW may doubt the number of cilivians killed, as originally presented to the UN by Russia, they do confirm the use of indiscriminate weapons upon a population and direct tank fire upon areas commonly used by civilians as shelter.
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/russia19620.htm

That article says that there have been a number of actions, listing a number confirmed to be comitted by Russians and their militias, and a number that they couldn't tell who was responsible because both sides are equipped with the same weapons.

Furthermore, those numbers were not disputed by any of the ambassadors present (including the Georgian abassador) at the US securtiy Council meeting where Russia presented those numbers.
http://www.undemocracy.com/securitycouncil/meeting_5952

Actually, the Georgian categorically denied the whole thing. None of the other ambassadors mentioned it because they likely don't know. Also, in the European case, because they're afraid Russia will use their gas dependency to punish them if they speak too loudly.

As for cries of outrage... The only people the US condemned prior to Russia opening fire, were the South Ossetians. The South Ossetian appearently missed a meeting. Understandably, China also showed outrage... at the violation of the Olympic Truce.
http://www.undemocracy.com/securitycouncil/meeting_5951

That's not how international diplomacy works. Missing a meeting is a very big deal and is usually seen as an indication the negotiations are off. Granted, although the Ossetians didn't bring it up, the US isn't a good choice here for a third party mediator, we have to condem the side that didn't show. China's response is understandable due to it's interest in not setting a precedent regarding it's opinion in this sort of event in either direction in case it ever decides to reintegrate Taiwan through force or intervene in regional affairs. Not to mention that China doesn't have a horse in this race. Plus, it's distracting people from their big shindig. It is, again meaningless because the Olympic Truce has NEVER been honored.

Edit: Removed ad hominem.

[Morgenstern]

You really have no concept of international diplomacy, do you?

Given the effort your fellow poster is putting into supporting the discussion, do you think this is a factual inquiry the moderators should overlook? It looks sort of like personal attack to me.

[Mischief]

HRW states that both sides have hurt civilians. Not Georgia alone.

I never said that that Russia was innocent. I was merely pointing out that while HRW finds the initial number of causualties suspect, they do have evidence (apparent time of damage) that the Georgian military delibrately targetted civilians trying to find safe shelter.

First, most responses were simple voicings of "concern".
Second, the Georgian ambassador did not state how many georgian victims of russians and ossetians there were, but he reminded everyone of "ethnic cleansings"being perpetrated in south ossetia against georgians.

The response from the UN should have been outrage. The Georgians began leveling population centers, in the dead of night, while under a ceasefire; escalating the situation to levels well beyond anything else seen since South Ossetia tried seperating from Georgia. They couldn't even be bothered to wait until the morning following Georgia's offer of ceasefire.

South Ossetia is an unrecognized state/territory.

Yet, they were condemned by the US for missing a meeting. On the other hand, it is okay for the military to begin full scale attack on Ossetian population center  

Both sides are "dirty". Blaming only Georgia whitewashes the fact that Russia had no right to cross the georgian border.

As the only power with the immeadiate availiblity to intervene. Russia had the responsiblity to Georgia's breach of the rules of war. The Georgian senior leadership, as well as the seperatists (there is corrently no evidence to suggest they were ordered to continue hostilities by their leadership) that continued fighting during the ceasefire, need to be tried for war crimes. Only by making an immeadiate example of those that commit war crimes (and crimes against humanity) will people begin to learn that such things will not be tolerated.

[Mischief]

That article says that there have been a number of actions, listing a number confirmed to be comitted by Russians and their militias, and a number that they couldn't tell who was responsible because both sides are equipped with the same weapons.

The estimated time of the damage done to the basements that took tank fire strongly suggest Georgian responciblity.

Actually, the Georgian categorically denied the whole thing. None of the other ambassadors mentioned it because they likely don't know. Also, in the European case, because they're afraid Russia will use their gas dependency to punish them if they speak too loudly.

Geogia denied nothing. Not the attack. Not the number. What Georgia did was point out incedent that resemble an attempt at ethnic cleansing on the parts of the Russians and the seperatists. Personally, I belvieve that the other ambassadors said nothing because availible images gave the number plausibility and a lack of time for further investigating did not provide enough information to discredit those numbers.

You really have no concept of international diplomacy, do you? Missing a meeting is a very big deal and is usually seen as an indication the negotiations are off. Granted, although the Ossetians didn't bring it up, the US isn't a good choice here for a third party mediator, we have to condem the side that didn't show. China's response is understandable due to it's interest in not setting a precedent regarding it's opinion in this sort of event in either direction in case it ever decides to reintegrate Taiwan through force or intervene in regional affairs. Not to mention that China doesn't have a horse in this race. Plus, it's distracting people from their big shindig. It is, again meaningless because the Olympic Truce has NEVER been honored.

I don't doubt that not taking part in negotiations is a bad thing, but it can you honestly tell me that justifies murdering civillians or that not taking part in negotiations is worse than leveling a population center.

As for the Olympic Truce, while may not have ben previously be honored, the UN put forth a resoultion recognise and abide by the Olympic Truce.
http://www.undemocracy.com/A-RES-62-4.pdf

[TheTSKoala]

*climbs out of his tree*  Okay.  I was trying to sit on the sidelines for this one, but everyone seems set on debating the what and not the why. 

First off, not about Oil.  Or, at least, not the "major" reason.  Russia has enough Oil control that it has a revitalized military, so much so, it's restarted it's national long distance bomber fly-bys of the Kremlin as a National Honor / Show of Force / Show that Mother Russia is back on her feet.

Secondly, Georgia is a thorn in the Russian side.  First, it broke away when M.R. (Mother Russia) fell.  Then, it did the unholy and turned democracy and aligned with the U.S.

Thirdly.  Does anyone really believe that Russia does not have fancies of re-combining the "rogue nations" of the USSR back into one glorious union-state?  This simply proved a great shot.  Ossetia got pissed off at Georgia, and Russia was like.. hey.. wanna come join us?

Lastly.  War numbers.  It's been pointed out time and time again.  The only EVER true numbers are done after the fact, by historians.  Everything "during a conflict" is put out by the majority of spin holders. 

So, did People die?  Yep.  Who's fault?  Both.  Could America get dragged in?  Holy god I hope not.

Oh, and as for all this UN saber rattling.  Folks, the UN is broken.  It holds no real power and is a puppet for anyone who wishes to use it as such.  Remember that.