Russia goes to War.

[spinningdice]

Both sides of the story seem too ladened with propaganda for me to make any decisions on who's in the right or wrong (if anybody).

[Mister Andersen]

In some of the footage you see of the Russian tanks, they have a lot of small cube-shaped objects on their front -- what are they, some sort of reactive armour?

[ThunderMonkey]

Both sides of the story seem too ladened with propaganda for me to make any decisions on who's in the right or wrong (if anybody).

Hear, hear. We told the world that Iraq had WMDs and was training terrorists.

I think there's a small thread of truth in what Russia is saying, but I'm thinking it has more to do with oil and pipelines than actually saving people or another country.

[Krensky]

It probably has less to do with oil and pipelines then it does to do with exercising power in what they see as their natural sphere of influence. In a way, this is Russia's version of the Monroe doctrine. Except with bullets and high explosive.

[ThunderMonkey]

I knew it...

http://www.sacbee.com/103/story/1149302.html

WASHINGTON – Although oil traders on Monday shrugged off Russia's widening invasion of neighboring Georgia, the conflict, if it spreads farther, could threaten nearly 1 million barrels per day of needed global crude supplies from the Caspian Sea, most of it bound for Europe.

The BTC pipeline takes its crude from Baku in Azerbaijan through Tbilisi in Georgia to the port city of Ceyhan in Turkey. It's the world's second-longest pipeline at almost 1,100 miles; this month, its through-put capabilities were to be boosted from 850,000 barrels a day to 1 million.

The BTC pipeline was built at a cost of $4 billion with support from the Bush administration. It is one of the important sources of new oil to offset falling production in Mexico and elsewhere.

But Russia, the world's second-largest oil producer, was upset about competition from Baku, the capital of the former Soviet republic of Azerbaijan, and its hostile, U.S.-backed neighbor, Georgia.

British Petroleum owns about a 30 percent stake in the pipeline, Chevron owns 9 percent and ConocoPhillips has about a 6.3 percent stake.

It seems that Russia wants to retain control of the oil flow.

All wars fought today (and since WWI in some cases) has more to do with economics and the hording of resources than geo-political maneuvering.

[Krensky]

Sigh...

ThunderMoneky... All wars are either about resources or ideology.

[OverNinja]

In some of the footage you see of the Russian tanks, they have a lot of small cube-shaped objects on their front -- what are they, some sort of reactive armour?

Yes. Looks like T-80s.

[ThunderMonkey]

Sigh...

ThunderMoneky... All wars are either about resources or ideology.

You made it sound like it was all ideology (maybe that wasn't your intent and for that I apologize for misreading it). It seems rather foolish to believe that any war is pure ideology except when the politicans try to dress it up pretty.

Lipstick on a pig is still a pretty ugly pig.

[Krensky]

In my (rather meaningless) opinion and the the opinions I've heard on NPR the BBC over this, this is mostly ideology. The Russian government is upset that the international community "doesn't take them seriously", and is mucking about it what it views as it's natural sphere of influence. Georgia looking to join NATO, for instance. The Russian government is currently dominated by ex-KGB right wing nationalists. The fact that Russia isn't a hegemon anymore and that no one recognizes what it considers to be it's legitimate interests in keeping Eastern Europe and the Caucasus essentially puppet or satellite states is a large part of this. Their recent actions are intended more to demonstrate the ability to project power then to fiddle with oil pipelines. It's somewhat comparable to the US Monroe doctrine, especially following Roosevelt's Corollary and the Clark Memorandum.

As for pure ideology, the US involvement in WWII was ideology, our involvement in Vietnam was ideology, I'd even argue that the Second Gulf War is ideology.

[Aragathor]

I'm against Russia. Too much history, both family and national.

Ditto.

In some of the footage you see of the Russian tanks, they have a lot of small cube-shaped objects on their front -- what are they, some sort of reactive armour?

It's ERA (explosive reactive armour). Almost every ex-soviet/post-soviet russian tank has it.


Let's give Georgia a big farewell! Because the russians will dismantle the country just like the nazis Czechoslovakia in 1938. And the world looks silently as a crime is being commited.
What Russia does is aggressive war, a war forbidden by international law. But the UN wil say nothing.

[Forcegypsy]

Georgia, it seems to me, tragically misread a situation. Not that it matters, but they started something and were either misled or ignored advice, seeing Russia's response. Geopolitical spheres of influence aren't imaginary, and not knowing that is a fail (IMO) from Georgia's government. I'm no fan of Russian government, but these Georgian guys really need to go to school and find out stuff on their own and rely less on NATO or the USA to get shit right for them.

[Forcegypsy]

In my (rather meaningless) opinion and the the opinions I've heard on NPR the BBC over this, this is mostly ideology. The Russian government is upset that the international community "doesn't take them seriously", and is mucking about it what it views as it's natural sphere of influence. Georgia looking to join NATO, for instance. The Russian government is currently dominated by ex-KGB right wing nationalists. The fact that Russia isn't a hegemon anymore and that no one recognizes what it considers to be it's legitimate interests in keeping Eastern Europe and the Caucasus essentially puppet or satellite states is a large part of this. Their recent actions are intended more to demonstrate the ability to project power then to fiddle with oil pipelines. It's somewhat comparable to the US Monroe doctrine, especially following Roosevelt's Corollary and the Clark Memorandum.

As for pure ideology, the US involvement in WWII was ideology, our involvement in Vietnam was ideology, I'd even argue that the Second Gulf War is ideology.

Wars over resources actually make sense. Unfortunately, for some reason, government leaderships find that ideology works better as a motivator for the unwashed and so you get the propaganda and the wars that continue past all reason. Especially wars that ignore political, economical and geographical reality.

IMO, neither Russia, nor Georgia were right on this, but reality is going to smack someone upside the head and unfortunately, as the weaker party, I think it's going to be Georgia. Seriously, as someone not invested in this, I'm really curious as to what the Georgian's were thinking at the start of all this?

The USA can afford to make retarded errors, because at the end of the day they can pull back to inviolate borders across the Atlantic/Pacific. I thought that sharing a border with a predator was supposed to make you smarter, simply as a matter of survival.

[MugMug]

I thought that sharing a border with a predator was supposed to make you smarter, simply as a matter of survival.

Sharing a border with a predator doesn't make you smarter, it's just the smarter folks who are more likely to survive that scenario. Basic biology applied to international relations.

Actually, biological models seem to work more often than not -- the only problem is they're analogous rather than directly applicable (and, biologists rarely hold international policy positions).

Walter

[MilitiaJim]

Let's give Georgia a big farewell! Because the russians will dismantle the country just like the nazis Czechoslovakia in 1938. And the world looks silently as a crime is being commited.
What Russia does is aggressive war, a war forbidden by international law. But the UN wil say nothing.

Of course the UN won't say anything, it's not the evil USA mugging another country.

Russia is still an evil empire.  Perhaps they have been surpassed by the Chinese government for evil, but I'm not sure.

[Wolverine]

Perhaps they have been surpassed by the Chinese government for evil, but I'm not sure.

Nah, I'd say there's still some evil in there. The Russians are just better at hiding it