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Author Topic: 4e and D20 Third Party Publishers  (Read 8547 times)
MilitiaJim
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« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2008, 06:45:17 PM »

I had some fun playing 4e at Origins.  It's not all things to all people, and I think they went way too MMORPG, but if I had a friend running a 4e game I would play.  Basically to play with friends.  And I am one of the many saddened by the untimely demise of LSPY, but I do understand why it folded.  If we could get it up and running again, I would be overjoyed.
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« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2008, 06:45:34 PM »

True.
I'm from a long line of very bad home games that tended to terminate prematurely, even the good ones, and as such I tend to see Living campaigns as the finest expression of the art. Nothing like having the mastermind his-or-her-bad-self telling the story.

Odd. I tend to see Living campaigns as the lowest expression of the art and hobby. Far to competitive. Too much ego. Too many fulfilled stereotypes.

This is an ironic joke, right?  This sounds just like something an Indie RPG fanatic anti-RPGA snob stereotype would say.

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Falkus
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« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2008, 07:41:11 PM »

Quote
In summation, 4E is a hunk of go se which is a deplorable set of rules. Over 50% of our local RPGA group is unlikely to go with it, at least a third have no interest. WOTC has been screwing the pooch on this.

I, on the other hand, have had a significant amount of fun playing fourth edition, and view it as a step forward, which suggests that perhaps this a matter of personal taste, rather than some hard fact.
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Morgenstern
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« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2008, 08:02:25 PM »

This is an ironic joke, right?  This sounds just like something an Indie RPG fanatic anti-RPGA snob stereotype would say.

*shrug* I think it's pretty silly for anyone to think that their personal experience of something that large can be construed as representitive of the whole. Given enough blind folks groping an elephant and reporting their findings, inevitably somebody is going to report putting their hand in some poo. Its equally silly say they their impression is invalid just because you happened to be patting a nice clean leathery flank. Its probably enough to recognize that other folks can only possibly be relating their own experiences, even if they phrase them as some universal insight Smiley.

Living games are structured to be competive, in the sense that bragging rights are a significant portion of the point to many participants. "Too" competive is a value judgement. When you read anyone making a value judgement, you kinda have to gauge how similar your values are to their before you try to puzzle out if their conclusions will have much use for you.
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« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2008, 08:05:37 PM »

I, on the other hand, have had a significant amount of fun playing fourth edition, and view it as a step forward, which suggests that perhaps this a matter of personal taste, rather than some hard fact.

No doubt. One thing I am deeply curious about with D&D 4.0 is how many folks who do enjoy it will still find it fun after about 25-40 hours of play. I know enough about what I like in a game to say "this looks amusing, but it doesn't appear to have much depth."
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« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2008, 08:30:44 PM »

Well, I've played 30ish hours of 4E, and I'm still having fun. Like any game, it's got as much depth as you want to put into it. Skill challenges (prehaps pre-nerf) are where the narrative really shines, IMO.
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Krensky
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« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2008, 08:44:51 PM »

True.
I'm from a long line of very bad home games that tended to terminate prematurely, even the good ones, and as such I tend to see Living campaigns as the finest expression of the art. Nothing like having the mastermind his-or-her-bad-self telling the story.

Odd. I tend to see Living campaigns as the lowest expression of the art and hobby. Far to competitive. Too much ego. Too many fulfilled stereotypes.

This is an ironic joke, right?  This sounds just like something an Indie RPG fanatic anti-RPGA snob stereotype would say.

Thank you. I must go off to a corner and mope, my secret having been discovered by the bastion of true gamer rightgoodfun that is organized play. The shame.  Cry

Seriously.  Huh?

To further explain:

Too competitive - Yes, a value judgment, but all the RPGA, LA, whatever players in my area that I am familiar with are exceedingly focused on character optimization, acquisition of certs, items, gold, whatever and somehow 'beating' the GM. They, at least when discussing their organized play, always discuss what their character did, not what the party did. There isn't any play between the GM and the PCs, as they describe it, and everything is presented as their character versus the GM and the party.

Too much ego - Nerd troop dominance games are tedious. Seeing the people in my area preen and brag about certs and character levels and mocking less optimized characters or GMs they rode roughshod over. You defensive ad hominem goes here too.

The stereotypes - Simply put, around here when I go to a Con or game day, the organized play tables are easy to spot. They're the ones full of the people who fail my basic table rule. "Never game with people you wouldn't socialize with otherwise."

None of the people I play with play indie games (well, some indie board games and some Burning Wheel). Our gaming is done with 3.5 of various levels of home rule, WEG Star Wars, Traveler, HARP, Game of Thrones, Mutants & Masterminds, Spycraft 2.0, Cyberpunk 2020, Falkenstein, D6, Tru20, and some homebrew systems.

I never claimed my experience was universal or wholly correct, or that organized play is wrongbadfun. Just that my experience with it both at cons and in "home" and "store" games is the total opposite of what Valentina described.
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TheAuldGrump
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« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2008, 09:04:37 PM »

Thank you. I must go off to a corner and mope, my secret having been discovered by the bastion of true gamer rightgoodfun that is organized play. The shame.  Cry

Seriously.  Huh?

To further explain:

Too competitive - Yes, a value judgment, but all the RPGA, LA, whatever players in my area that I am familiar with are exceedingly focused on character optimization, acquisition of certs, items, gold, whatever and somehow 'beating' the GM. They, at least when discussing their organized play, always discuss what their character did, not what the party did. There isn't any play between the GM and the PCs, as they describe it, and everything is presented as their character versus the GM and the party.

Too much ego - Nerd troop dominance games are tedious. Seeing the people in my area preen and brag about certs and character levels and mocking less optimized characters or GMs they rode roughshod over. You defensive ad hominem goes here too.

The stereotypes - Simply put, around here when I go to a Con or game day, the organized play tables are easy to spot. They're the ones full of the people who fail my basic table rule. "Never game with people you wouldn't socialize with otherwise."

None of the people I play with play indie games (well, some indie board games and some Burning Wheel). Our gaming is done with 3.5 of various levels of home rule, WEG Star Wars, Traveler, HARP, Game of Thrones, Mutants & Masterminds, Spycraft 2.0, Cyberpunk 2020, Falkenstein, D6, Tru20, and some homebrew systems.

I never claimed my experience was universal or wholly correct, or that organized play is wrongbadfun. Just that my experience with it both at cons and in "home" and "store" games is the total opposite of what Valentina described.

Heh - my turn for Nerd Domination! Troupe, not troop. Tongue Homo Sapiens is an example of trouping primate. Now I need to quietly go off and mock my own pretensions for a moment. Tongue

More seriously, I have had long discussions involving trouping primate behavior and everything from RPGs to professional sports to the two party political system. And yes, any competitive environment can bring it to the fore.

The Auld Grump, aye mah nae bleedin' amadan!
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 09:08:40 PM by TheAuldGrump » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2008, 09:09:34 PM »

I have never been in Organized Play for gaining certs but more for telling the story and hanging out with my friends. One of the great things about LSpy was the overall lack of certs compared with other Living games. I believe there may have a grand total of 15 certs altogether over 45-50 missions. By certs, I mean things you can use not conditions from playing the mission like an Enmiity of WARD or something similar.

I actually had someone tell me that "...people game to get certs." Which I find a repulsive statement, but looking at some of the people here in Arizona, who are tame compared to the national level, I cannot fault the logic of the statement as unfortunate as it is.
 
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« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2008, 09:10:22 PM »

Grump...  Tongue

  Smiley
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« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2008, 09:25:22 PM »

Quote
No doubt. One thing I am deeply curious about with D&D 4.0 is how many folks who do enjoy it will still find it fun after about 25-40 hours of play. I know enough about what I like in a game to say "this looks amusing, but it doesn't appear to have much depth."

I'll let you know after a couple sessions of the campaign I'm starting next month.
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« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2008, 09:32:18 PM »

I, on the other hand, have had a significant amount of fun playing fourth edition, and view it as a step forward, which suggests that perhaps this a matter of personal taste, rather than some hard fact.

No doubt. One thing I am deeply curious about with D&D 4.0 is how many folks who do enjoy it will still find it fun after about 25-40 hours of play. I know enough about what I like in a game to say "this looks amusing, but it doesn't appear to have much depth."


My personal limit was about 10 hours. 
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TheAuldGrump
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« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2008, 09:49:32 PM »

Looking it over - not my cup of tea, not at al, at all.

A few interesting ideas - swapping the mechanics for saves to those that had been used for resistances, keeping all of the characters involved for the length of play. But aside from those nothing that interested me at all. Sad

I pure hated what was done to Wizards (my favorite class for the rare occasions that I get to play), multiclassing (this is an improvement how?), the GSL (if WotC makes a frivolous lawsuit against a publisher the publisher has to pay WotC's legal fees as well as their own? Even if they win?), the loss of flexibility and versatility across the board (PCs, NPCs, and monsters all), and WotC telling me that the fun I have had with 3.X and other RPGs is not fun? (This was more Mearls than WotC - but he was speaking for the company, so they can go rot.)

Hell, the GSL deserves mention multiple times - I liked the sharing of ideas and mechanics that the OGL fostered, encouraged, and to some degree required. the GSL flat out forbids it without WotCs permission. I liked how far the basic system could be stretched - from Spycraft to Mutants & Masterminds to True 20.

Even if I liked 4th ed. far better than I do I would still not send one penny to WotC, purely because of the GSL. I will remain a fan of the OGL, and let 4th ed. sit on the shelves.

The Auld Grump - bitter? Maybe a little. Tongue
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« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2008, 02:18:36 AM »

This is an ironic joke, right?  This sounds just like something an Indie RPG fanatic anti-RPGA snob stereotype would say.

*shrug* I think it's pretty silly for anyone to think that their personal experience of something that large can be construed as representitive of the whole. Given enough blind folks groping an elephant and reporting their findings, inevitably somebody is going to report putting their hand in some poo. Its equally silly say they their impression is invalid just because you happened to be patting a nice clean leathery flank. Its probably enough to recognize that other folks can only possibly be relating their own experiences, even if they phrase them as some universal insight Smiley.

Living games are structured to be competive, in the sense that bragging rights are a significant portion of the point to many participants. "Too" competive is a value judgement. When you read anyone making a value judgement, you kinda have to gauge how similar your values are to their before you try to puzzle out if their conclusions will have much use for you.

Value judgments aside, I disagree.  How are Shadowrun Missions or Witch Hunter: Dark Providence "bad" by Krensky's criteria?  It's not a value judgment; it's a sweeping generalization that just strikes me as snobbery.  LSPY was a great campaign while it lasted and comments like the previous ones just dismiss the players' and writers' achievements.
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« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2008, 02:22:07 AM »

I never claimed my experience was universal or wholly correct, or that organized play is wrongbadfun. Just that my experience with it both at cons and in "home" and "store" games is the total opposite of what Valentina described.

Thanks for clarifying.  Point by point, my experience is vastly different from yours.
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