Examining 'The Dark Knight' [Massive spoilers without tags - you are warned]

[Krensky]

Well, Pre-Crisis Gordon's children are Tony and Barbra. Post-Crisis, his son is James Jr. and his niece and ward/adoptive daughter is Barbra. James Jr is born during Year One, and Babs hasn't lost her parents yet so she's not in Gotham.

[Sletchman]

Actually, they pretty much gave the broad outline of his origin in the first movie. Criminal in Arkham, escaped in the riot, exposed to fear gas and the Batman.

Then his fingerprints and likely DNA would have been on file.  I know gotham has problems, but they still fingerprint crims.

This was one of the few continuity problems I noticed. I don't know why someone didn't catch this one. arg.

I didn't mean it was a continuity problem, I meant that I don't think this was his origin.

Just as an aside: Sarah Dunn was supposedly cast as Harley Quinn, but appeared in the movie as "Maroni's Mistress".  I don't really know who she is, but I'd rather someone like Rhona Mitra for my slice of Harley.

Edit: By supposedly I mean http://www.superheroflix.com/news/93/24393.php among others claimed it.

[Desertpuma]

Rhona's not a blond, if they wanted to stay faithful ... I'd rather see Katee Sackhoff aka Starbuck or Sienna Miller play Harley Quinn

[Mister Andersen]

establish him as a pure anarchist, and, in many ways, the ultimate incarnation of evil in Batman's world - without morals, without fear, without pain, and utterly relentless.

This joker could so easily be the origin point of a toxic meme -- and Harley doesn't fall in love with the Joker, but literally with the idea of the Joker, and the idea that the clown's inherent purpose is to challenge society...

I still consider Mark Hamil's one of the best, blending sociopathic brutality and selfishness with wit and wackiness that just feels right.

I still view Hamil's peformance as the definitive Joker, and given Ledger's voice throughout the movie, I suspect that Ledger and/or Nolan are right there with me.

But as Morgenstern pointed out, the Jokers theme was in fact to get people to kill each other, so the boats being hooked up to the other detonators, and getting the people to live with their own guilt, is the more likely scenario. Of course, he's insane, so who's to say.

People detonating their own boats was the outcome I'd expected -- and having broadcast the message to not only the boats but the rest of the city, those on the boat that weren't murderers would instead be ostracized as ones who don't have the honesty to admit to pushing the buttons.

I did like that a prisoner was the strongest of anyone.

That I think really neatly illustrated where the Joker failed and Batman succeeded -- the most strident don't always have what it takes to cash the cheques their mouths are writing while those who speak softly can have greater depths than anyone expects.

First was the fact that they didn't kill the joker at the end.  Honestly, who could replace Ledger after that?  It was a decision that can only hurt the films from this point on because no one will be the same.

I'm glad they didn't -- it would have given him an even greater victory than the one he already claimed with Dent's soul... and possibly even Bruce's. It's interesting that he wasn't willing to let the Joker die as a result of his actions (if someone else had defenestrated the Joker, I don't think he would have saved him -- and in so doing wouldn't have found out about 2-Face), but is potentially willing to have Harvey die in order to spare Jim the loss of his child.

Speaking of which, giving Jim a (favoured) son in this film really pisses me off. If any member of Jim's family is getting threatened in a movie with the Joker, FFS it needs to be Babs -- who, though named in dialogue during BB is simply credited as "Gordon's Daughter" this time round.

I also thought the "I want to turn my head" part of the bit where Bruce gets Lucious to redesign the Batsuit was needlessly meta-textual -- and makes you wonder why such a seemingly basic requirement wasn't addressed in the initial design.

Rachel getting Fridged was quite a surprise -- and once you think about it, given the Joker's comments during his beating, it's obvious that he'd lie about who was where. The dual choice being involved in Harvey's creation rather than by him against Batman was something of a genius move.

Recasting Harvey as former IA was a strange move given Jim's comments to Weiss in BB, even if I can see why they recast the relationship between the three amigos in order to lead into the status quo at the end of the film.

After watching Gotham Knight, I was really peeved that they'd ditched Montoya in favour of Ramirez. Now I'm rather glad that Renee escaped the fate of her stand in, yet find myself now irritated that the characterisation she got in GK seems completely the opposite of how she's portrayed here.

Tangentially, apart from the cop who betrayed him, who were the other 4 people that Two Face killed?

[Daedalus4096]

Finally saw the movie for the first time today, and DAMN.  That's a lot of movie, and it never really lets up.  I'd say it's now probably my second favorite movie in recollection, though things start to get a little fuzzy up there at the top.  Little too tired to go into detail at the moment, but that's what tomorrow's for.

Tangentially, apart from the cop who betrayed him, who were the other 4 people that Two Face killed?

The Italian mob boss, said mafioso's driver, and the cop that drove Dent to the bomb site are the three that come to mind.  I don't remember the other two.

[Mister Andersen]

He's specifically mentioned as having offed a 2nd cop -- I wonder if he was originally meant to have not spared Ramirez but they changed their mind because having Fridged Rachel they didn't want the body of the only other female character on their hands.

[ahzad]

Finally saw the movie Tuesday I have to say I was very impressed by it I'm not a huge Batman fan, but the movie in the words of my daughter who went to see it with me, it
was freakin' awesome.

I dug the comic book nods scattered in the movie at least the few that I caught.

The Joker retelling his origin differently each time comes from The Killing Joke, I think.

The reference to the impostors wearing hockey suits, is from The Dark Knight Returns I think.

And the one that made me giddy was when Lucian confronts Bruce about the money from R&D being diverted into a top secret global telecommunications satellite, that could've only be a Brother Eye reference, glad it was destroyed at the end though.

There were probably others but those are the ones that jumped out at me.

As for speculation on villains for the next movie. I would like to see Penguin as someone mentioned from the Pysch of Batman. He would be the ultimate bureaucrat keep him as the arms dealer/advanced tech business and put him into conflict with Bruce Wayne as an attempt to takeover Wayne Enterprises keep him as seemingly legit as possible for someone in that type of industry. I would assign him as a right-hand man, Deadpool who would have access to all the high tech weaponry and gadgets as a foil for Batman.

Of course Bruce needs a love interest why not set up another love triangle with Bruce/Bats, Selina, and Talia. Selina could be someone that Batman runs into while both are hitting the same locations, but with different purposes in mind, and Talia could return to set up her revenge for the death of Ras, or attempt to bring Bruce in to lead the league as Ras's successor.

but whatever they do it's going to be a hard movie to follow.

[Mister Andersen]

Batman3 definitely needs more female characters to make up for TDK's  Fridging of Rachel.

If you're going to introduce Talia, I think you need to bring the Huntress along to the party as, effectively, the LoS's back-up plan in case Bruce flunked the training her father was over seeing.

The dojo from BB only had men as students, so having Talia, ahem, heading up an equivalent one for women -- because there's no way you're not going to find enough angry and disenfranchised women looking for payback -- makes sense. Having Helena as a student gives the LoS an in amongst the city's underworld rulers just as Bruce would have been to the city's ruling elite. But when Talia sees that the LoS's second attempt on Gotham has also failed, she decides to take a different tact...

And while I dislike the current intention in the comics to retcon Helena into being (yet another crimefighting) lawyer instead of her far cooler occupation as a teacher (a shaper of the minds that will build the future), positioning her as a mob lawyer would her access to information that Batman doesn't, allowing her to strike at Gotham's enemies in a different manner.

[ThunderMonkey]

We're talking the Bertinelli version of Helena, not the Wayne version, right?

I'm more apt to go along with Helena Bertinelli. It's just too early for Bruce o be having full-grown kids.

[Mister Andersen]

Well, obviously I'm talking about the Bertinelli version -- last time I checked the Earth-2 version (reinvented as the Birds of Prey tv series version) had nothing to do with mobsters.

Helena's religious faith would I think be her out from the LoS the way Bruce's belief in Rachel's little diatribe after the trial was his.

With Batman now persona non grata due to the decision not to blame Two-Face's kills on the last of the Joker's men, I can easily see Gotham being ripe for another vigilantee who feels it's acceptible to kill because Batman is now apparantly using such methods himself, which of course just makes things worse for him in the eyes of those who want his head...

While working the LoS into the origin of yet another Bat-Character (we had Ra's and Bruce, and tangentially Scarecrow in BB) might seem excessive, one of the great strengths of the Nolan Batfilms has been their continuing narrative (as opposed to the individual stories of the previous franchise). We've seen how such a chaotic avatar as the Joker can make complex plans, so how can a millennias old organisation be any less involved?

Especially when BB so neatly set the LoS up as Gotham's pan-generational nemesis. Economics failed to conquor the city, they failed to subvert its greatest scion, even Ra's himself couldn't drive it mad thanks to the efforts of less than a handful of individuals. And then it was again individuals -- Batman, Harvey, even the Joker -- who have proved that Gotham is capable of more than its enemie have believed it to be.

[Krensky]

Of course, that also opens the Joker up as having been a potential weapon of the LoS. There's something about the concept of a weaponized narcissistic sociopath that's compelling.

[ThunderMonkey]

Of course, that also opens the Joker up as having been a potential weapon of the LoS. There's something about the concept of a weaponized narcissistic sociopath that's compelling.

I agree, but I don't think the LoS would have anything to do with the Joker. He's too much of a wildcard and his schemes, which seem nebulous at first, are far more planned out than what the LoS could put together. Surely, the Joker would have came up with a better plan to get the microwave emitter (or whatever it is) from Point A to point B.

Besides they're polar opposites. The LoS exists because no one knows that they do, in fact, exist. However, the Joker has no qualms about putting his face out there.

[Mister Andersen]

Well, the Joker seems utterly absent from the system to a degree that seems to imply something beyond the usual cleanskin, but yes, I agree. He's the utter antithesis of the LoS's stated aims of order and harmony, breaking things not because threy need to be broken but just because he likes to break things.

[Mister Andersen]

Its been argued that in real life, the Joker probably wouldn't even had time to finish explaining the rules of the game before someone on one of those ferries made a play for the trigger. This failure of the "ferry experiment" alone would provide rich feeding grounds for any number of psychologists, but throw in the chaotic avatar of the Joker himself, and it'd be the psych equivalent of a pirahna feeding frenzy -- and what if one of them had been primed by being a student of Doctor Crane?

A Nolanesque version of Harley would be radically different I think from either the DCAU or DCU takes on the character. The cartoonishness that essentially defines her would be gone, as would her fixation on the Joker as romantic companion. We'd be getting something closer to the version that showed up in the Birds of Prey tv series, less the comedy lackey and more of a Cthulhu Mythos-esque mastermind interfering with both sides in order to carry out the clown's intrinsic duty to challenge society.

On the other hand, I don't think Catwoman would be able to carry a film as the sole antagonist -- the stakes she plays for, even if we accept the Huntress: Year One version of the character as anarcho-feminist, just aren't on the same scale. A Huntress/Harley/Catwoman mix on the other hand would be quite interesting to see, and make up for the arguably blatant misogyny we got the TDK.

[Desertpuma]

Makes you wonder who they would choose for each of the roles of the women ...

I'd love to Katee Sackhoff or Alyson Hannigan pull off Harley ... Catwoman needs to be someone seriously athletic enough as well .. Tricia Helfer could certainly pull off the jewel thief bit but she is probably too tall for Bale but Ali Larter would be a really good fit ... Not sure offhand about Huntress either