Destroying a Tank in less than a dozen shots

[Merxiless]

I've heard that a captured TOW II missile, hitting in a weak spot, could kill an M-1

[Krensky]

I've heard that a captured TOW II missile, hitting in a weak spot, could kill an M-1

Captured? The BGM-71 TOW is an US system.

The Abrams has survived numerous ATGM missile strikes, including more then one friendly fire incident involving Hellfire II missiles which have twice the warhead of the most recent TOW. Anything, including .50 BMG could "kill" a Abrams with luck. That's what the phrase "Golden BB" covers.

[OverNinja]

Captured? The BGM-71 TOW is an US system.

Well, the Iranians have them. Sold by the US along with Cobra gunships, F-4, F-5 and F-14 fighters.

There is a record of a TOW missile incident with an M-1 during the 2nd Persian Gulf War (Operation Desert Storm).
February 26th, Norfolk line, TOW and 2 DU hits, double hull penetration, 3 WIA.

There is also a record of a recoilless rifle penetrating the engine casing and puncturing the rear fuel cell. This caused an uncontrollable fire and the decision to destroy the tank. Thermite grenades, a HEAT round from another M-1, a AGM-65 Maverick missile and two AGM-114 Hellfire missiles were expended. The outer shell remained intact.

A hit to the engine compartment will kill an M-1 or any modern MBT. It may not blow it up but disabling is in most cases as good as destroying.

[MilitiaJim]

Well, the Iranians have them. Sold by the US along with Cobra gunships, F-4, F-5 and F-14 fighters.

...

A hit to the engine compartment will kill an M-1 or any modern MBT. It may not blow it up but disabling is in most cases as good as destroying.

I wouldn't be scared to have those old TOWs launched at me.  Really I'd be more worried if I was the guy with the trigger.  If they're stored right, they might not be useless, but those missiles weren't stored properly and are a greater hazard to the person firing them.

We call those "mobility kills" and yes, it's not fighter a battle ten miles away, and if you want to get away, blowing a track off the tank may not help.  That main cannon is an AT&T piece, and Ma Deuce has some long arms as well.

[OverNinja]

Considering that the Iranians reverse engineer and just copy stuff, I wouldn't be surprised if they could manufacture some kind of TOW-based system.

[Krensky]

As I said earlier, the threshold that matters in game isn't destroyed, it's broken.

And the Iranian TOW is a copy of the ones we sold the Shah, not the originals. I'm not sure they're as much of a threat as a modern ATGM though, that model was designed for 1960s era Soviet tanks and the Toophan only has a penetration of 550mm RHA, and the upgraded Toophan2 has a penetration of 760mm RHA. Of course, these are Iran's claims regarding performance. These numbers are both worse then the rough equivalent BGM-71 numbers (600mm - 800mm and 1000mm + ERA).

Now, there are man portable ATGMs that pose significant threats to a modern MBT. The Russian 9M133 Kornet (NATO reporting name AT-14 Spriggan), the US FGM-148 Javelin, the Japanese Type 01 LMAT, the Israeli Spike. Please note these are man portable in the military sense. Meaning you and your squad can carry the thing. A M2 is a man portable weapon system by this definition.

[MilitiaJim]

Solid fuel rocket motors are tricky business.  I think their missiles are mostly liquid fueled.  (That may not be the case.)  TOWs are not exactly the newest gear, and the Iranians being able to make some is not inconcieveble.  I do doubt they have the potency of the latest iterations.

[MilitiaJim]

A M2 is a man portable weapon system by this definition.

I have never seen an M2 counted as "man portable," and only once seen one in operation neither on a vehicle nor at the range.  (And "in operation" is sorta flexible.  It was during an AT and the battalion scout platoon dropped off the .50 cal, some ammo, and a tripod and went off to do something else.)

Missiles and mortars are broken down and carried, but I don't think that is much of an option for an M2 or a Mk19, both of those still have one piece that can't really be added to a rucksack and humped over hill and dale.

[Krensky]

The Toophan and Toophan2 are solid rockets, and slightly faster then the TOW missiles they're closest to, but with worse penetration. They also share the primary weakness of the TOW and other Semi-Automatic Command to Line of Sight ATGMs. Namely that the weapon crew has to sit there and wait until the weapon hits the tank. This is generally a problem because, if I remember my tanker friend's tales, the best counter measure to these is to quickly find the crew and take them out. Fire and forget systems like the Javelin, Type 01, or Spike avoid this problem.

[Krensky]

A M2 is a man portable weapon system by this definition.

I have never seen an M2 counted as "man portable," and only once seen one in operation neither on a vehicle nor at the range.  (And "in operation" is sorta flexible.  It was during an AT and the battalion scout platoon dropped off the .50 cal, some ammo, and a tripod and went off to do something else.)

Missiles and mortars are broken down and carried, but I don't think that is much of an option for an M2 or a Mk19, both of those still have one piece that can't really be added to a rucksack and humped over hill and dale.

I suppose I was being a little hyperbolic there. Sorry.

[MilitiaJim]

I suppose I was being a little hyperbolic there. Sorry.

No worries.  There is a goodly amount of difference between "men can carry it" and "man portable."  Though frankly I'm not entirely sure where the line is.  A Stinger team of two guys carries a ****ton of gear, and most of it isn't expendable.  But Stingers are man portable.  I think 81mm mortars are technically man portable even though the base plate weighs over 50 lbs.

[Merxiless]

2 guys can carry an M2HB broken down with some difficulty.

And Yes, I was aware that TOW is an American ATGM system.  By Captured, I meant, Captured or reverse engineered, etc, our side's ATGM Teams or an ITV is not purposefully gonna fire it at known live, M! friendlies in a combat situation.  Friendly fire incidents being the exception.

Tow being more effective than most soviet era ATGMs for example which M1 was designed to defeat, was my point.