Initial Thoughts: D&D 4th Edition

[Number Three]

Does anyone think that wizards got really nerfed?

Wizards got the short end of the "all classes must adhere to strictly defined character roles" design mandate.  Unlimited, user defined spell books in 3E meant that, as long as the DM didn't put the kibosh on it, the huge variety of spells in print let a wizard do anything.  The ever-growing wizard/sorcerer spell list stomped all over class roles in 3E, and wizards had the best access to it.  Without that, the 4E wizard is pretty much a magic bolt thrower with easier access to the much slower and only feasible outside combat 'rituals', where the utility spells from 3E ended up.

I'm in a 3E game.  When combat does start, my ranger usually ends up rolling a bunch of attack checks a doing a couple dice of damage with each hit, and then moving on to the next target.  The casters are the ones with a gajillion options for making the opposition croak.  If you played a melee character in 3E, 4E is awesome.  You now have real decisions to make during combat.  If you played a wizard, you'll probably feel like you've been mugged in a dark back alley and left naked.

And yes, feats have been reduced to flavor traits in 4E.  All the heavy hitter feats of 3E have been transformed into class powers, where they have far more control over who gets them.

[Wolverine]

If you played a melee character in 3E, 4E is awesome.

Unless you played a Fighter who focussed more on dealing lots of damage (two weapons, etc), or a Barbarian. Now, Fighters are either 'I have the biggest stick' or sword-and-shielders. If I want to weapons I have to go Ranger, and then I'm restricted with my armour and the Powers I can take.

I know why they wanted to better define the class roles, but in doing so they screwed them down a little too tight.

[ThunderMonkey]

Unless you played a Fighter who focussed more on dealing lots of damage (two weapons, etc), or a Barbarian. Now, Fighters are either 'I have the biggest stick' or sword-and-shielders. If I want to weapons I have to go Ranger, and then I'm restricted with my armour and the Powers I can take.

I know why they wanted to better define the class roles, but in doing so they screwed them down a little too tight.

That's my biggest complaint about WoW, and the players that lack imagination tend to only see such classes as an either/or situation.

[MilitiaJim]

And yes, feats have been reduced to flavor traits in 4E.  All the heavy hitter feats of 3E have been transformed into class powers, where they have far more control over who gets them.

This is my biggest gripe outside of a lack of multiclassing.  And some restrictions are irritating.  Why can't I backstab with a greatsword?

[Desertpuma]

So now high level, or even low level, combats will take longer to chew through in a game which means scenarios will need to have time added on to their 4 hour slot to tell the story.

A friend of mine who loves playing wizards and sorcerors says they've been nerfed too effectively. He is eagerly awaiting more of Spellbound and likes what he has seen so far.

To me, it sounds like a boardgame with powers. My roommate tried to convince me that the boardgame thing is because it would be that for any adaptable adventure. Needlessly to say, I didn't agree.

With everybody having powers, the things occuring that need to be kept track, buffs primarily, will not only be lengthy but time consuming. Instead of having just a regular spellcaster buffing the party (wizard, sorceror, cleric or bard), you now have fighters and rogues adding to the mayhem.

[Crafty_Pat]

So now high level, or even low level, combats will take longer to chew through in a game which means scenarios will need to have time added on to their 4 hour slot to tell the story.

Sto... ry?

(Sorry, couldn't resist.) 

[Desertpuma]

Yeah, I know ... it was bad of me to say story. Does "Revolving Door of Monsters" sound better?

[Wolverine]

I can see some of the new adventures having a plot which essentially boils down to:

"Hi. You help me? Me give you loot. Need kill monster. Monster bad. Monster that way."

Ahh, DnD 4.0 - the world of Int 5 NPCs.

That's my biggest complaint about WoW, and the players that lack imagination tend to only see such classes as an either/or situation.

The main problem with WoW is that you have to adhere to those set roles in order to be fully effective in the 'end game', though in WoW you can re-spec along the way.

[MilitiaJim]

The main problem with WoW is that you have to adhere to those set roles in order to be fully effective in the 'end game', though in WoW you can re-spec along the way.

You can sorta respec now in D&D 4 too.

[Desertpuma]

That is just sad. ... I never respec in a RPG, even during LSpy I never did a respec except switching from 1.0 to 2.0

[ThunderMonkey]

The main problem with WoW is that you have to adhere to those set roles in order to be fully effective in the 'end game', though in WoW you can re-spec along the way.

You can sorta respec now in D&D 4 too.

I laughed out loud when I read that... I don't know why... 

[MilitiaJim]

That is just sad. ... I never respec in a RPG, even during LSpy I never did a respec except switching from 1.0 to 2.0

I didn't respec so much as rebuilt.  My old log cabin had burnt down, and I was given prefabbed rebar slabs to build my new place.  I didn't really have much to change when WoF came out.  But I'm still sad LSPY is gone.   

[Desertpuma]

That is just sad. ... I never respec in a RPG, even during LSpy I never did a respec except switching from 1.0 to 2.0

I didn't respec so much as rebuilt.  My old log cabin had burnt down, and I was given prefabbed rebar slabs to build my new place.  I didn't really have much to change when WoF came out.  But I'm still sad LSPY is gone.  

I'm with ya, Jim.

[TheTSKoala]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeroQuest_(board_game) <---- The True Play Test of D&D4 was done back in 1991!

[Argonnite]

3) It's virtually impossible to kill people in 4E unless they are beyond unlucky.  To test how much they could take, my three friends with level 1 pre-gen characters took on a single Bugbear (level 5 Brute) after a few lesser encounters.  They did defeat it, but it managed to knock the dwarf Fighter to -12, and the Wizard to 0, which I would expect given the difficulty.  For the Dwarf to die, he would have had to have been knocked to a negative number equal to his  "bloodied" number -- half his max hit points.  That means that for a 1st level character to get killed, they have to take 49 hp worth of damage.  While clearly damage increases at higher levels, it looks like they kept one of my least favorite aspects -- the grinding through hit points for round upon round with really nothing special happening.

A PC also dies if it fails 3 saves while Dying.

The high level grinding is a concern of mine.  My players who are around level 15 right now are looking forward to the new system since oftentimes they're able to defeat EL 18 or 19 encounters before half the party gets to do anything exciting (buffing doesn't count as exciting).