Initial Thoughts: D&D 4th Edition

[LordKruelos]

So I've now read through 4th edition and have some initial thoughts, which might or might not be helpful in helping you decide if you want to purchase it or not.

I can't remember ever starting to read a game rulebook with less enthusiasm and more detachment, essentially reading this was almost an academic question.  As a game designer, I wanted to see what they'd come up with.

Initial comments:
More so than any game since maybe the basic set way back when, this game seems pretty clearly about getting new blood into the hobby.  Character Creation mechanics seems much more a throwback to 2nd-edition, much more linear and rigid, with far fewer choices you have to make at creation than core 3.0/3.5.  Make no mistake about it, this is a simpler game in most respects.

Holy Powercreep, batman -- Everyone has bunches of hit points and the ability to use "Healing Surges" x number of times a day to heal themselves -- but the damage potential of weapons doesn't seem to have increased significantly (Dagger does 1d4, Longsword does 1d8, Morningstar does 1d10, Heavy Flail does 2d6), though various powers actually MULTIPLY the damage dice done For example, a falchion (which has a damage die of 2d4) deals 8d4 damage when used with a power that deals 4[W] on a hit -- Also, it appears that Critical hits automatically occur (Natural 20 is an auto-crit, no confirmation roll required.  Some weapons crit on less than 20) Rather than roll damage, a critical hit does the maximum damage you can roll with your attack.

A 12th-level eladrin paladin, hits a foe with thunder smite. The attack deals 2[W] + Strength modifier thunder damage and knocks the target prone. The damage would be 2d8 (longsword's 1d8 × 2) + 7. The +7 bonus includes her +3 Strength modifier, a +2 feat bonus (Weapon Focus), and a +2 enhancement bonus (from her +2 thundering longsword).
If she scores a critical hit, she deals maximum damage of 23 points and adds 2d6 thunder damage from her thundering longsword. If she wanted to use her thundering longword's encounter power on this hit, she would add 10 thunder damage and push 1.


Once you drop to 1/2 or below your max # of HP, you are "Bloodied" which is used as a trigger for tons of abilities (for example, the Dragonborn Frenzy feat)

Dragonborn Frenzy [Dragonborn]
Prerequisite: Dragonborn
Benefit: While you are bloodied, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls.

Almost everything is level-dependent now, from the 4 "Defenses" (Armor Class, Fortitude, Reflex, Will -- yes, you no longer seem to roll saving throws, instead they function as passive  target numbers similar to  Armor Class).

Your Skill Check modifier is:
One-half your level + Your ability score modifier (each skill is based on one of your ability scores) + A +5 bonus if you're trained in the skill
That's right. No more skill ranks, no variation in skill level.  You're either trained with it or you're not, everything else depends on Level and Ability Score (in my opinion, this is one of the WORST changes they could have made, but hey, some people like Level and Ability Score driven games -- I for one hate this).

Attack Rolls are similar, only instead of the +5 for being trained, you get the weapon's Proficiency Bonus (assuming you're proficient with the weapon) -- again, no training involved here. Either you're trained (which, depending on the weapon, gives +0, +2, or +3 to attack) or you're not. Different feats give bonuses when using different weapons, for example:

Blade Opportunist
Prerequisites: Str 13, Dex 13
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to opportunity attack rolls with a heavy blade or a light blade.

Far Shot
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: When you use a projectile weapon such as
a bow or a crossbow, increase both the normal range
and the long range by 5 squares.
 
On the positive side, character creation is VERY fast, especially at 1st level. I did a quick trial run and timed it, not rushing but also not taking a whole lot of time to carefully read -- the book is broken down so you can easily pick your powers/feats/skills as needed.

16 Minutes -- Most steps of mechanical creation (Race, Class, Ability Scores, Skills, Feats, Powers)
4 Minutes -- Basic level-1 Equipment buying (the 15gp "Standard Adventurer's Kit" is pretty much the best thing they could have done here)

Once again -- this game is very simple.  Almost painfully so.  If you want a game that you can sit down and play after 10-20 minutes of character creation, this will do that.  However, to me it feels very VERY similar to a slightly more complex version of HeroScape, the little cheap Milton Bradley minatures game with the interlocking plastic hex terrain.  Oh, and this just in -- there's really no good way to play this game without miniatures and battlemats, to an order of magnitude greater than 3.5.
If you like that, that's great, if you don't you will not like this game.  Of course, if you like greatly configurable, non-level-based characters, you're not going to be playing this game anyway. Further, this is not the game if you have even a shred of desire for realism.  Leave that at the door.  If, like me, you have trouble with the thought of ANYONE getting hit repeatedly with a deadly weapon and continuing to fight on with no problems, you're going to hate this game.  It is a Hit Point grinder, with lots of different abilities giving you different ways to do MORE hit points worth of damage. I can easily see the much-advertised attempt to capture more World of Warcraft type players.

Anyway, some will like it, some won't.  This is a very different game even from 3.5, and not necessarily in a good way.

(Spycraft remains my favorite d20-based system BECAUSE it gives you options, rather than take them away, and they're well-written rather than... meh).

[VisualStatic]

So in other words, my first thought of not ever buying stuff from WoTC was the right choice.   

I'm at a point that all my future gaming needs will be gotten right here,  I"m just waiting on a few things.  Just a few...

[LordKruelos]

I love Crafty for what they do.  Personally, however, when it comes to fantasy, I'm a bigger fan of the kind of system that Burning Wheel and The Riddle of Steel brought to the table -- I just prefer a well-constructed dice-pool system for my gritty, semi-simulationist fantasy, but pretty much anything modern or future, Spycraft is the first book I pull off the shelf.

[Wolverine]

One other thing that is worth noting about saves, is that each is now tied to two abilities - Fort is Str and Con, Ref is Dex and Int and Will is Wis and Cha. This is one of the few changes I actually like.

I had a chance to flick through the MM myself. I understand that they want to keep all the main monsters in alphabetical order, but when the first dozen or two pages are almost all high level monsters, it does get a little off-putting. Perhaps if they'd arranged the book to follow the three level tiers (Heroic, Paragon, and Epic) it would be a little easier on newer players and GMs.

[TheTSKoala]

NDC is now officially broken.. so...

Yes.  D&D 4.0  (Or what I've come to known it as D&D for Dummies) is essentially a cash-cow, hobby version of an RPG.  Now, everyone might read that and be like.. Eeeeh?  Let me explain.

Stigma one:  RPGs are for geeks.
Stigma two:  Geeks are around 5-10% of the population.
Stigma three: What about the other 90%?

So, we get D&D 4.0 who rides in on the World of Warcraft train of thought.  Make a game that can appeal to the masses by not being too geek'd out and be a passive hobby. 

I was lucky enough to be in a game tester's group.  Do I hate the game?  No.  Did I hate game testing it?  Yes.  Bored me.  Not enough customization and it felt like we went from one extreme to another.  D&D in the past was very easy to kill a party, 4.0 you have enough mechanics in there that if you die, you GM is out to kill you.

Happily, I've had my players who were "Oooh!  DD NEW!  YEAH!" looked through their books (they weren't in the same group as the game tester) and they sorta had a collective sad /sigh.  They liked that it was more streamlined.. ...but at the same time hated that it was more streamlined.  So, now I have them interested in FantastyCraft alot more.  And, if FC is like Spycraft, I should be able to get myself out of any "Can we play 4.0?" scenarios.  Honestly, it's not awful, but not for me.  Too basic.

[Sletchman]

I gotta agree with everything you wrote here.  After having a good read through all three books in the same clinical, detached fashion as you did, I was left utterly uninspired.  I think with some groups, character gen above first level will take longer - due to the need to weed out utterly rubbish abilities, in favour of stuff worth taking.

Stat-Creep as you level is also enormous.  You start with really average stats [not a bad thing of itself, but its a stat driven game] and by mid->high levels have key stats that will concievably be in the mid 30's and beyond.

Lack of differentiation in a classes core defensive / offensive abilities bugged me - Everyone has the same fort, reflex, and will, as well as attack bonus, and almost certainly armour value.  So yeah, the feeble old wizard is as tough as the grizzled barbarian, and as fast as the nimble rogue. [I'm speaking in base terms here, stats will alter these values, but not significantly enough to cause what I consider good variance]

Some of the art is exceptional; I will say this for Hasbro - they can pay some of the worlds top artists to fill their books.

One other thing that is worth noting about saves, is that each is now tied to two abilities - Fort is Str and Con, Ref is Dex and Int and Will is Wis and Cha. This is one of the few changes I actually like.

I like 2/3 of it - I can't like Reflex being Int driven.  No matter how smart you are, it don't let you dodge stuff.  I can see Rex being Wis driven [more awareness leads to faster reaction time], but I can't deal with Int.

I had a chance to flick through the MM myself. I understand that they want to keep all the main monsters in alphabetical order, but when the first dozen or two pages are almost all high level monsters, it does get a little off-putting. Perhaps if they'd arranged the book to follow the three level tiers (Heroic, Paragon, and Epic) it would be a little easier on newer players and GMs.

Agreed.

Like TSKoala said, the game isnt awful, but if I wanted to play WoW, I'd spend my Monday and Friday nights on my computer, not at my FLGS.

[Bill Whitmore]

One other thing that is worth noting about saves, is that each is now tied to two abilities - Fort is Str and Con, Ref is Dex and Int and Will is Wis and Cha. This is one of the few changes I actually like.

I had a chance to flick through the MM myself. I understand that they want to keep all the main monsters in alphabetical order, but when the first dozen or two pages are almost all high level monsters, it does get a little off-putting. Perhaps if they'd arranged the book to follow the three level tiers (Heroic, Paragon, and Epic) it would be a little easier on newer players and GMs.

I didn't really like the new attribute pairings for defenses.  Instead of trying to make each of the 6 attributes useful, they have more or less caved in and said "Screw it, let's make it easy to have dump stats".  Int no longer gives you skills, some classes don't even use Str (GO ROGUE!), Dex doesn't help the heavy armored tanks at all, and with the exception of the classes which explicitly require it, Cha is back to dump stat surpreme.

Con, on the other hand, is added directly to HP (not con modifier, mind you, just Con score) which makes it much more attractive than most attributes, although near as I can tell, there is no per level HP bonus for Con.

Most characters will be able to dump 2 stats and never notice, and some can dump 3.

For example: Rogues use Dex (instead of Str) for their attacks.  Since every class wants a good Con, they can dump Str and not lose out on Fort saves.  They already have a high Dex so they don't really need Int (since they won't get skills from it anyways), so they can dump Int too and not lose much, including Reflex saves.  Then they get a choice to dump either Wis or Cha, which would most likely be based on skill choices, the better of the two also being used for Will.

My D&D group is going to try it, but I don't know how long we will stick with it.

[TheAuldGrump]

Took a look at it today.

Oh my gods, I dislike it.

I am one of those folks who, on the rare occasions we get to play rather than run a game, play wizards. What has been done to wizards is far worse than anything I anticipated. Choices have been darn near eliminated. Resource management is gone. A wizard is little more than a warlock with different abilities. I am not one of those folks who dislike change - I really liked everything that I read about 3e long before it showed up, while the changes were pretty massive I felt that they were justified.

Not this time. Not at all. The magic system, and the creation of magic items, killed it for me.

The Auld Grump

[Aragathor]

Can anyone tell me what's with two-weapon fighting and holding a weapon in two handed? Any changes compared to 3.5?

4ed is a boardgame imitating an RPG. Not going to even look at the books.

And the worst part of it -> I know a lot of people who swallowed the hype and will switch to 4ed. Good that my player's want to stick to 3.5

[Falkus]

Personally, I've enjoyed the new rule set in the various sample games I've had a chance to take part in, and I really don't see that changing in the future.

And the worst part of it -> I know a lot of people who swallowed the hype and will switch to 4ed.

You know what? I am sick of this attitude. People can have different tastes in what they enjoy, you know.

I respect your decision not to play fourth edition, and I'm not insulting you over it. Could you at least have the courtesy to do the same to me?

[TheTSKoala]

I think Aragathor meant that people simply jumped to 4th Edition BECAUSE it was WOTC and not because they tried the product.  Not actually insulting people.  And, as I said, some people will like it.  It's a hobby version of an RPG.  Nothing wrong with that. Just not for me.

[Aragathor]

You know what? I am sick of this attitude. People can have different tastes in what they enjoy, you know.

I see that you have misunderstood me, let me clarify:

What I meant were people who, after hearing about 4ed, stated "we will switch to 4ed, it will be better than 3.5".
I understand that many gamers will like the simple rules of the 4ed, but there will be many who will change from 3.5 to 4ed simply because of peer pressure (GM stating "either we change to 4ed or you look for a new GM"). And this is what I don't like.

I have nothing against those who want to play 4ed, but it's not the ultimate RPG. It's not even an RPG to me.

PS: Let's get back to the topic.
PPS: And sorry if you felt insulted, I didn't meant to insult anybody.

[Argonnite]

4ed is a boardgame imitating an RPG. Not going to even look at the books.

And the worst part of it -> I know a lot of people who swallowed the hype and will switch to 4ed. Good that my player's want to stick to 3.5

And what's wrong with boardgames?

Also it sounds to me like a lot of people swallowed the anti-4.0 hype.

[tenebrae]

I have nothing against those who want to play 4ed, but it's not the ultimate RPG. It's not even an RPG to me.

See, I don't get this attitude. What about it isn't an RPG? That it's fairly technical? So is Spycraft. I've run a few of my friends through the first part of Keep on the Shadowfell, and there was plenty of role-playing. Social interactions don't need to be dictated by the rules (there's nothing wrong with them being so, but its not the only way). How is 4E any less of an RPG than 1st or 2nd Edition?

[Mister Andersen]

Well, it's the D&D game days scenarios that are essentially boardgames - they're always combat fests with zero social interactions.

I pre-ordered the slipcase set a good two weeks ago and the fucking idiots didn't have it in when I went in to pick it up as my birthday present from the family - I was told I could go to their other store or wait until they get off their arses and fulfil the order. So as a result I don' thave my books.

Not pleased.