Initial Thoughts: D&D 4th Edition

[Valentina]

Happy birthday Mr. Anderson!

Indeed! Happy birthday my incendiary kiwi contact. 

[MilitiaJim]

Happy Birthday Mr. Anderson.

(Anyone not on the bandwagon yet?)

I feel like in some ways the game suffered from an inconsistent design vision and purpose. If they were trying to widen the net and bring in people new to the hobby, I'm actually all for that.  In that case, I actually support the simplification -- playing the game does seem to have become significantly easier.  4th edition makes me think of it really as a "Basic Set"

However, they were inconsistent in their simplifications -- two of the biggest "newb killers" in the game really didn't get fixed (Opportunity Attacks and Grappling, now the Grab maneuver).  Maybe they've been cleaned up a little bit, but I really don't see much improvement. 

Attacks of Opportunity I understand.  I think they make sense.  I even see why they're missing from Spycraft.  But Grapple rules have always been sorta tricksy. 

Simplified is good, and I do get the idea behind the attack rolls vs AC, Will, Fort, and Ref.  Kinda cool idea, though for running the game, the more rolls the PCs can make, the better for the DM.  I could even see the point for a mechanic that has the PCs roll attacks vs monsters, and defense against the monster attacks.  Save the DM rolling more than damage.  Hmmmm.

[LordKruelos]

Attacks of Opportunity I understand.  I think they make sense.  I even see why they're missing from Spycraft.  But Grapple rules have always been sorta tricksy. 

Simplified is good, and I do get the idea behind the attack rolls vs AC, Will, Fort, and Ref.  Kinda cool idea, though for running the game, the more rolls the PCs can make, the better for the DM.  I could even see the point for a mechanic that has the PCs roll attacks vs monsters, and defense against the monster attacks.  Save the DM rolling more than damage.  Hmmmm.

I like that as something I'd quite possibly do if I were to play for any stretch of time.

I've given Opportunity Attacks another read and they do seem like an improvement over 3.5, but still there's something about them I don't like as written.

[Wolverine]

I got to check out some of the new DnD minis yesterday. The Lamia is remarkably meh, but then it's an almost exact copy of the book art, which isnt much better. The Hook Horror is the best I've seen so far, and also the most dynamic. The drow could be summed up thusly: It's a black-skinned elf, wearing black clothing, and armed with black weapons. It looked a bit like a skinny Darth Vader with pointy ears and white hair. Bah!

The models in the starter pack are pretty good, especially the ones meant to be player characters, although the Yuan-Ti is fairly poorly sculpted. I like the idea of the Starter Pack, but it is a bit of a shame that it appears to be the only place you can get the models it contains.

[Argonnite]

I feel like in some ways the game suffered from an inconsistent design vision and purpose. If they were trying to widen the net and bring in people new to the hobby, I'm actually all for that.  In that case, I actually support the simplification -- playing the game does seem to have become significantly easier.  4th edition makes me think of it really as a "Basic Set"

However, they were inconsistent in their simplifications -- two of the biggest "newb killers" in the game really didn't get fixed (Opportunity Attacks and Grappling, now the Grab maneuver).  Maybe they've been cleaned up a little bit, but I really don't see much improvement. 

To be more specific, I'd say 3.5 Grappling with iteratives and interpretive variation on Improved Grab rules is the newb killer.  4.0 has no iteratives and no badly worded "specific trumps general" Improved Grab rules as I could see.  This was the biggest improvement I was hoping for and I'm happy with the changes.

AOOs in 3.5 slowed down the game because there was a big laundry list you had to consult every time somebody did something.  Long-time 3.5 players in my group even thought that mounting or dismounting a horse provoked an AOO.  It doesn't.  4.0 made that laundry list very short now focusing on the intuitively obvious actions.  (Of course I couldn't even see any rules for mounted combat in my initial reading of 4.0, but to me that's an acceptable tradeoff.)

[Mister Andersen]

What does prompt an AoO and how many do you get?

[Argonnite]

What does prompt an AoO and how many do you get?

When an enemy leaves a square or uses a ranged or area power adjacent to you or within your threatening reach you can take an Opportunity Attack.  Teleports, shifts, and involuntary movements (push, pull, or slide) don't count.  You get one per another combatant's turn but you can take any number during a round.

[Mister Andersen]

Damn. It means I could have speared the warlock after all. Ah well

[Desertpuma]

I just watched Best of Times last night with Kurt Russell and Robin Williams (again, good flick). I reminded, in relation to minis, the scene of them working out plays in the dirt.

"Jack, you're the bottle cap."
"I don't want to be the bottle cap, Reno. I want to be the piece of glass."
"Well, Rocco's the piece of glass already."

In other words folks, small rocks or beads work just fine at a fraction of the cost of buying a mini. A friend of mine buys several sets of just D12s in varying colors and glues them to mini bases with their numbers up in ascending order. He uses these for enemy minis since D12s get used the least. I think he has 10 or 12 different color sets.

[Argonnite]

Damn. It means I could have speared the warlock after all. Ah well

Our D&D Gameday DM also forgot that you can now occupy prone allies' squares.  This helps clear up congestion versus monsters who like to trip or knock down.  An enemy still has to be helpless though for you to occupy its square.

Desertpuma:  I saw the d12 minions in action too and liked the idea.  I couldn't do it since I currently play a 15 level cleric who casts Bolt of Glory (15d12 damage).

[dpmcalister]

...I meant were people who, after hearing about 4ed, stated "we will switch to 4ed, it will be better than 3.5"...

...there will be many who will change from 3.5 to 4ed simply because of peer pressure (GM stating "either we change to 4ed or you look for a new GM"). And this is what I don't like...

Sorry, had to laugh at this statement (no offence intended) because this is exactly the situation I faced and saw when Spycraft 2.0 was announced and released!

[LordKruelos]

...I meant were people who, after hearing about 4ed, stated "we will switch to 4ed, it will be better than 3.5"...

...there will be many who will change from 3.5 to 4ed simply because of peer pressure (GM stating "either we change to 4ed or you look for a new GM"). And this is what I don't like...

Sorry, had to laugh at this statement (no offence intended) because this is exactly the situation I faced and saw when Spycraft 2.0 was announced and released!

Ack! An Unbeliever! Shun him! Shun Shun!

Joking aside, I understand.  Personally, I recall being very intrigued by some of the changes that were getting preview prior to 2.0.  2.0 was the first book I was able to get the people I gamed with to buy for themselves rather than just using my books and passing them around.  They had already been enjoying Spycraft, they could see I was eagerly anticipating the new version, and then I came to the next session with 2.0 to show them -- and it was a thing of beauty.

[dpmcalister]

Like I said, no offence intended. In some cases the above is true. In others, people actually like the game. Me? I bought the 4e PHB and will play it if one of the others in my group runs it. I doubt I'll run it myself though.

[Argonnite]

...I meant were people who, after hearing about 4ed, stated "we will switch to 4ed, it will be better than 3.5"...

...there will be many who will change from 3.5 to 4ed simply because of peer pressure (GM stating "either we change to 4ed or you look for a new GM"). And this is what I don't like...

Sorry, had to laugh at this statement (no offence intended) because this is exactly the situation I faced and saw when Spycraft 2.0 was announced and released!

Locals scoffed at me when I tried getting them to upgrade from Spycraft 1ed to 2.0.  Ah well...

[Crafty_Pat]

Locals scoffed at me when I tried getting them to upgrade from Spycraft 1ed to 2.0.  Ah well...

Was that for any particular reason or just because they didn't want to switch?