Elements of Magic: Mythic Earth and Spycraft

[TheAuldGrump]

Hmmm, I got a message asking about my conversion of EoM:MR to Spycraft 2.0.

Since I am still looking for feedback I might as well start the topic over in the new forums, so....

Hello,

I was wondering if you could share with me your conversion notes for EOM.
I've been running a Fantasy Game using Elements of Magic Revised, and am interested to see how what your take on it is.

Regards,

Medwyn

Hmmm, I do not know how similar EoM:ME is to EoMR - the former was created for D20 Modern, while the latter is for D20 Fantasy. My books are currently at a friend's house (my game is on hiatus for the next month, and someone else is running for a bit), so this is from memory.

When I first started the conversion I was thinking of magic as just something nifty to give the character an edge - what I did not consider is that I made the price of admission too high, feats, and skill points, and subdual damage, oh my! None of which was all that bad until you added in that I had upped the difficulty, and was charging Action Dice just to use the powers. For summonings I also inflicted Stress damage - contacting otherworldly planes is stressful. The net result was that the characters were better served putting the points elsewhere.

As time passed I whittled away at what I had wrought, lowering the difficulty, though not to the base level in the book (ending up with 12 + Spell level), halving the amount of subdual damage, and getting rid of the Action Dice cost entirely. The stress damage remains unchanged, but I upped the duration to make up for it. Casting a spell inflicts 1d3 subdual damage per level of the spell, and summonings also inflict 1D6 stress damage, more if the critter being summoned is particularly horrific (Infernal, Cthulhoid, etc.), halved if particularly benign (lesser Angelic beings, some fey) .  Even at the new difficulty the players often end up spending Action Dice to get the spell to work, but now they actually are letting their characters cast spells, so I am well served by lowering it back down from a base of 15. The one good thing that I had before was that the Action Die spent to use magic was automatically rolled and added to the result. 

EoM:ME  has a number of 'Magic Skills' which come out of the characters skill points, and are always treated as cross class unless you have a tradition feat that grants them as class skills. In some ways this is the greatest cost of casting spells - points can get awfully thin if you are investing in more than one or two Magic Skills, and there are ten of them to choose from:  Attack, Charm, Create, Cure, Defend, Divine, Illusion, Move, Summon, and Transform.

I converted the Mage class from the book, representing the 'Professional' magicians as opposed to the dabblers. I also tweaked the Tradition Feats, and got rid of others - I want traditions that fit a Victorian setting, so made traditions to fit. One of the players chose the Mage class, the other just took the Christian Healer tradition feat. The two characters argue a lot.

High level Healing spells (mostly Resurrection magics) inflict Drain upon both the caster and the target, the caster is allowed a Fortitude save, not so the target. While the players do not disagree with this it is something that has not actually been used - no one has died as yet, and no one has high enough skills to pull it off yet, anyway. I sometimes waffle towards just allowing it as a Revolving Door campaign quality, but I always return to the draining cost as the baseline. Low level healing spells affect only Vitality, not Wounds.

I also decided to link magical sites to Tradition rather than to a particular Skill, a place that a magus of the Classical Fey tradition finds useful is much less so to a member of the Theosophist Society or the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.

The 'new' Traditions are: Theosophist, Hermetic, Spiritualist, Satanist (followers of the Great Beast Alister Crowley come a touch later, currently in game it is the Hellfire Club, independents are called 'Witches' and 'Warlocks' - Wicca as it is known today has not become a tradition yet, and so the words are used only in their perjorative sense), and 'Druidic' (real druids would be spinning in their graves, these are the folks who will, eventually, come to be known as 'Wicca' - the older members are called 'Cunning' or 'Canny' folk). In other areas of the world are 'Vodoun', 'Conjure men', Hex Witches, and 'Hoodoo' these cover a mix of Tradition, religion, and Superstition.

The ones that I have left out include Animeism (yes, animeism. not animism... blechh!) Wuxia (groan!), and Squirrelomancy (*Twitch!*).

For Magic Items I cheat, and assign them to Gadget picks. I do not care, ruleswise, if a Gadget is magical or Steampunkish in nature - Steampunkish devices are bigger, and much harder to hide, but magic needs an Action Die to use. (NPCs gain a set number of uses rather than relying on Action Dice.) So, rather than gaining Craft Points the Magus gains a free Gadget pick, much like the Inventor. Steampunk Gadgets are one Size larger than the size typical to the Spycraft rules, Magic are the standard sized gadgets - a ring would be a miniaturized gadget choice.

I am resurrecting the topic over in the forums, feel free to make any suggestions in the License to Improvise area.

The Auld Grump

[Medwyn]

Wow! Great! Thanks! Etc!

That sounds very well thought out and I like your ideas.

I run two major games one a Fantasy game and the other based in the Fading Suns Universe.

I was looking at the rules for EOM:ME and they are a far more streamlined than EOM:R and less options in a way and my players don't enjoy having too many options.
I was leaning towards having only one Magic skill that was a focus skill, then each tradition would allow you access to the different foci, and a forte would give the normal bonus.

I also like having a cost to casting magic, so I was thinking of using magic points/spell point cost, similar to the Spellbound classes, but I do like the subdual damage idea.

As for Traditions, I was thinking of making them adjust error/threat ranges, then mishaps can be Critical Errors and an error would give a penalty etc.
I'd be interested on how you've tweaked the traditions to see if we are thinking the same way.

I've been running with Gadgets as Magic Items for a while and it works out rather well.

[TheAuldGrump]

Wow! Great! Thanks! Etc!

That sounds very well thought out and I like your ideas.

I run two major games one a Fantasy game and the other based in the Fading Suns Universe.

I was looking at the rules for EOM:ME and they are a far more streamlined than EOM:R and less options in a way and my players don't enjoy having too many options.
I was leaning towards having only one Magic skill that was a focus skill, then each tradition would allow you access to the different foci, and a forte would give the normal bonus.

I also like having a cost to casting magic, so I was thinking of using magic points/spell point cost, similar to the Spellbound classes, but I do like the subdual damage idea.

As for Traditions, I was thinking of making them adjust error/threat ranges, then mishaps can be Critical Errors would be mishaps and an error would give a penalty etc.
I'd be interested on how you've tweaked the traditions to see if we are thinking the same way.

I've been running with Gadgets as Magic Items for a while and it works out rather well.

Yep, the cost to casting magic is where the subdual damage comes in, the system is fairly forgiving in regards to successful castings, but can be harsh for fumbled ones (activated like a critical failure in my games). Critically failed spells deal one point of damage (I run with vitality for this) per spell level. In addition many traditions list alternate or additional penalties. (The one for classic fey involves the fey showing up to carry the caster off for some wild carousing... the PC in my game with access to the tradition did not put up a fight. ). One suggestion given in the book is having the spell deal Strength damage to the caster - in the range of 1-4. This damage is dealt even on a successful casting. A bit more damaging than I really wanted, so I ran with Subdual damage instead.

A character can also 'overpower' a spell by voluntarily taking Strength damage. Alternately he can spend an Action Die, which has been the typical choice in my games.

I have thought about somehow dropping the number of Magic Skills down to three, but have not been happy with the results. So, for now I stick with the standard for the system, with characters choosing only a few skills by tradition. A professional Mage gets six skill points as his/her base, so does have some to spend. It is a bit harsher on the amateur casters though. At least Spycraft characters seem to have a few more skill points on the average.

One idea I just had while typing this is a new Specialty -
Wizard's Apprentice: While young you were trained in a magical tradition.
Bonus Feat: Any one Tradition Feat
You gain 4 skill points that may only be spent on the Magic Skills of your chosen Tradition. You gain 4 more bonus skill points at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 that must be spent on those same skills.

*EDIT* Alternately I could go with 1 extra Skill Point per level to be spent on those same skills, same result, smoother flow.

Thoughts?

The Auld Grump, off to bed wi' me.
*EDIT 2* Ironically I intended this to be a 'low magic' option - it is anything but. While not as focussed and powerful as Spellbound the flexibility of the casters makes them about equal I think. The low magic just was not worth the investment to the player characters.

[Medwyn]

While I like the idea of spells doing subdual, I prefer Magic/Spell Points.
I'm currently converting the Traditions over to a more crafty feel and then making sure that they are also generic fantasty too.

I'm going to go with a single magic skill just like what was suggested for the Psi powers and I think it was suggested for Jedi Force as well. Also it is much easier to fit one additional skill into my character sheet than to give the players another sheet too get lost in.

I am planning that if you don't have the magic Foci then you can't cast spells from that magic list, and you can only learn magic foci that your tradition allows. That should help get around some power issues.

One idea I just had while typing this is a new Specialty -
Wizard's Apprentice: While young you were trained in a magical tradition.
Bonus Feat: Any one Tradition Feat
You gain 4 skill points that may only be spent on the Magic Skills of your chosen Tradition. You gain 4 more bonus skill points at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 that must be spent on those same skills.

*EDIT* Alternately I could go with 1 extra Skill Point per level to be spent on those same skills, same result, smoother flow.

This is one I've been thinking of using an updated version of my Fantasy version.
Wizard Apprentice

• Bonus Feat: Any Tradition Feat (1)
• Incantation is always a class skill, your result cap is increased by 5. (1)
• Gain Wizard Profession Foci (1)
• You gain +1 insight bonus with Resolve checks. This bonus increases by an additional +1 at Career Levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 (2)
• You gain a +1 bonus to Knowledge checks. This bonus increases by a further +1 at career levels 4, 8, 12, 16 & 20.  (2)

[TheAuldGrump]

Yet another way to limit the use of Magic is having a casting, successful or not, cause the caster to make a Fortitude save (perhaps 12 = Spell level) or become fatigued - a second casting, or any other event that causes fatigue that is not saved against (DC 6 + Spell level) renders the caster exhausted. A third failed Fortitude save (again DC 6 + Spell level), whether for fatigue or exhaustion renders the caster unconscious.

I have not tested this version, it would appear to alter the flow and pace of the game substantially.

I am trying to avoid a spell point system, like the zero level spells in Spellbound I want some casual spellcasting as well as the powerful devisings. Subdual damage seems to work well for this in play - the Christian Healer and the Magus of the Traditional Fey have both driven themselves into unconsciousness when the felt it was warranted. I have them make their saves against the subdual thresholds after the spell is cast - if you feel less generous than a check that takes place before the spell effects do might be worth a shot. Personally, I like the idea of the magus casting one last spell before passing out.

Creating and balancing Traditions is a bit of a pain - it would have been nice if a mechanic had been included for the creation of Traditions. Even the Traditions in the book were created off the cuff, some seem distinctly more powerful than others.

When I get my stuff back I will post my homebrew Traditions.

The Auld Grump

[Medwyn]

I quite like the idea of subdual damage coming from casting spells, unfortunately my players don't really enjoy that idea but they do like spell points.

I guess each to their own.

But in saying that I plan on running it past my players and see what happens.
The way I see it Subdual Damage from casting spells would help keep magic more low key, but on the flip side of that I want the Magic Users to keep up with the other players...

I'm thinking about bringing in some 0th level spell which can just be cast as long as they make the skill check as per normal. They'd be based about 1/2 the ability of a Level 1 spell.

Here is a couple of Traditions I am working on.

Magi Academy
You went to a fancy school to learn magic and now you must stick to the rules.
Benefit: You may select any three Magic Foci which you may learn.
All your spells require you to make use of a 'Power Item'. This is an item by which you focus your magic through such as a Heavy Tome, a Fancy Wand or Ornate Staff. This item gives you a bonus to your spells, but without you suck.
A Power Item is a Gadget(Magic) Gear Pick that is attuned to one specific caster.

Caliber	Bonus (when held)	Penalty (when lost)	Error Increase (when lost)
I	+1	-2	+1
II	+2	-4	+2
III	+3	-6	+3
IV	+4	-8	+4
V	+5	-10	+5

Ritual: The ritual leader MUST use her Power Item.
Mishap In a mishap your Power Item can not handle the flow of magic and explodes, doing 1d6 per Level of Spell with an Blast increment equal to the Caliber of Power Item.
If you were not using your Power Item you instead take 2 points of Intelligence damage per Level of Spell.

Hedge Mage
You didn't go to any fancy school to learn magic, you just picked it up as you went along, and then made the rest up.
Benefit: You may select any two Magic Foci which you may learn.
Further you add your Charisma modifier to your Incantation Skill Checks, but your error range with such checks increases by 1.
Rituals: Whenever a Hedge Mage is involved in a Ritual, the error range increases by 1 per Hedge Mage involved. However when a Hedge Mage is involved in a Ritual the number of challenges required is reduced by 1 (min 1).
Mishap: Magic surrounds you and then it tries to rip you apart, you suffer 1d6 Stress damage + your Charisma Modifier per spell level.

[TheAuldGrump]

Hmmm, I do not recall if there are official rules regarding 'healing' subdual damage with Action Dice, but if that ability is available then it may take care of some of the 'keeping up' that you want in regards to the spellcasters.

I am also considering 'Colleges of Wizardry', but am likely to describe the graduates thereof as an Expert class, or series of such. In my steam era game the Ministry of War maintains the Royal Naval College of Wizardry, founded under Admiral Lord Nelson. Officers only, I am much afraid. The Army has no such institution, at need Naval wizards are seconded to the Army. The Army is loathe to resort to such measures.

Universities and high end public schools (in the British sense of the term) also make magical instruction available - with Harrow and Cambridge vying for which is the greater of the two. Oxford, in particular Balliol, also maintains a magical tradition, lower key, less prestigious, but much more focussed on the practical end of things.

The C. of E. may also maintain scholarship in the arts magical, and the Vatican most certainly does. For its part the Greek Orthodox Church has a magical tradition that dates back to St. Albertus Magnus - in practice it is nearly indistinguishable from Hermetic tradition.

For some reason my prose becomes rather more formal after I have been working on my steam era setting for a time.

The Auld Grump

[Medwyn]

Hmmm, I do not recall if there are official rules regarding 'healing' subdual damage with Action Dice, but if that ability is available then it may take care of some of the 'keeping up' that you want in regards to the spellcasters.

Subdual heals over time reasonably quickly when in low doses so I'll have to see how it plays out but I'll have to see what my players think about this change first.

snip

Your backstory sounds rather nifty and well thought out   
I am impressed.

[TheAuldGrump]

Hmmm, I do not recall if there are official rules regarding 'healing' subdual damage with Action Dice, but if that ability is available then it may take care of some of the 'keeping up' that you want in regards to the spellcasters.

Subdual heals over time reasonably quickly when in low doses so I'll have to see how it plays out but I'll have to see what my players think about this change first.

snip

Your backstory sounds rather nifty and well thought out   
I am impressed.

The setting has survived being transplanted several times - first being run in D&D 3.0, then in OGL Steampunk and D20 Modern (at the same time in different campaigns), then over to Spycraft 2.0. There is also a True 20 version written up, in abbreviated form, for the summer program. Each time I have hammered in just a little more work. Primary fiction sources are Randall Garret's Lord Darcy series (actually set in an alternate 1970s - where a lot of the great minds turned their attentions to the study of magics rather than the sciences) and Patricia C. Wrede's Mairelon the Magician series (set in an alternate Regency period). Rudyard Kipling is also influential, most especially Kim.

Primary non-fiction sources include some very good resources on the Victorian Underworld by Mayhew, Chesney, and Thomas (all with the same title 'The Victorian Underworld... perhaps not the most imaginative title in the world ).

I blame Sherlock Holmes more than anything else - I rather despise the British during the period, but then I am of Irish descent. (One of these days I plan to visit the Famine and the Troubles in this setting.)

The Auld Grump, great grandson of his great grandfather....

[Medwyn]

I was just updating my character generator and was thinking about replacements for Computers and Electronics.

I normally just threw them out, but was thinking of keeping them in for a change and then I can make use of the Hacker and other options by making them magic based.

I thought Electronics could be some sort of Magi-Tech skill for repairing/disarming etc magical items.
Computers could be some sort of Scrying skill.

Has anyone done anything similar?

[TheAuldGrump]

I was just updating my character generator and was thinking about replacements for Computers and Electronics.

I normally just threw them out, but was thinking of keeping them in for a change and then I can make use of the Hacker and other options by making them magic based.

I thought Electronics could be some sort of Magi-Tech skill for repairing/disarming etc magical items.
Computers could be some sort of Scrying skill.

Has anyone done anything similar?

No, I have not tried anything similar - but you may want to think of the Akashic Record as a magical equivalent of the Internet. A Hacker becomes a dedicated medium to the Akashic Records, you might want to rework the Hacking Dramatic Conflict cards to reflect this - and rather than a deck an 'Acker would meditate with something tied to his tradition. (A hangman's tree and a well or pool for a follower of Odin, large stone circles for more 'Druidic' believers, prayer wheels for more Eastern beliefs, I have a feeling that these are more sites than equipment. Sort of like hacking with Eniac.)

Weird, I do not remember thinking about this at all, but the idea was right there, already worked out in my head. Hmmmm....

The Auld Grump

[Medwyn]

I do quite like that idea and think I'll run with that.
Computers quickly become Scrying Devices, though perhaps bigger and such. Then most of the Electronics equipment can be replaced with magic items relating to this.

[Forcegypsy]

Not only an interesting idea...I swear this discussion took place on the old boards about keeping the less obvious classes around in a Fantasycraft game. The Akashic record idea is new though and a wonderful idea.

[spinningdice]

I kinda prefer the idea of an animistic spirit world, I don't know why but the idea of an Akashic record doesn't fit with me.

[TheAuldGrump]

I kinda prefer the idea of an animistic spirit world, I don't know why but the idea of an Akashic record doesn't fit with me.

For my own game I have a multitude of spirit worlds, several of which form Faerie - the most easily accessed of the spirit worlds.

In much the same manner as the Norse worlds the 'sprit worlds' are very much worlds of the body as well.  The gates are opening after being closed for a long, long time. Some opened in rather odd places - London Under is a very dangerous place, where the goblins make their home....

Spirit world in the sense of the afterlife is determined more by faith than anything else, with no one true afterlife, no matter what the priests, preachers, and cohen might say.

The Auld Grump