Multiple covers, vehicles and damage?

[elpolloguerrillero]

Hello again!

A few new questions, I hope you can help me like in my the last  post.
http://www.crafty-games.com/forum/index.php?topic=1766.0

Vehicle damage and crew/passagers damage

When a stopped vehicle suffers and impact from a canon or Hight caliber AP rounds (no explosive damage) and the vehicle "wounds" drops below 0 (not destroyed yet)....

The crew takes any damage? I think NO. Correct?

If the vehicle is destroyed the crew takes any damage? I think NO but... I'm not sure.

If the vehicle is moving the crew takes a collision damage as standard, but no extra damage. Correct?

Multiple covers and final damage

How can I handle this situation...

A player character is behind a door and a enemy soldier shots him with his assault rifle (Equipped with a thermal scope )

The weapon damage roll is 18 (AP3)

The door don't succed in his damage save.

How much damage takes de player?

A little more dificult ...

If the player is behind 2 diferent covers (example, the door and a hostage-NPC), or the door and a thin wall.

The damage roll is 30 (AP3) (Higger damage than before for calculation pourposes)

No save success for the covers...

I don't know how diferent layers of cover interact with the final damage.

If one of the covers makes his save the player takes no damage. Correct?

I hope someone can help me.

Thanks, and again, sorry for my english.

[gaghiel42]

Once I make it home to my book, I may be able to help you figure that one out.  Unfortunately, I don't have the rules memorized just yet... 

[elpolloguerrillero]

Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, You're My Only Hope!

I really need some help here.

[spinningdice]

Not had time to double check everything, but here goes...

Vehicle damage and crew/passagers damage
When a stopped vehicle suffers and impact from a canon or Hight caliber AP rounds (no explosive damage) and the vehicle "wounds" drops below 0 (not destroyed yet)....
The crew takes any damage? I think NO. Correct?
If the vehicle is destroyed the crew takes any damage? I think NO but... I'm not sure.
If the vehicle is moving the crew takes a collision damage as standard, but no extra damage. Correct?

As far as I can gather - this is all correct, but it seems wrong. I'll have to go through it better when I have time.

Multiple covers and final damage
How can I handle this situation...
A player character is behind a door and a enemy soldier shots him with his assault rifle (Equipped with a thermal scope )
The weapon damage roll is 18 (AP3)
The door don't succed in his damage save.
How much damage takes de player?

Right, the rules don't really go into detail in this situation.
The target has full cover, which is ignored with the thermal scope.
Damage is rolled, door fails it's damage save so deduct the door's Damage Save from the damage rolled 18 - DR6 seems reasonable for a standard board door (3 after AP) so 15 damage.
Please bear in mind this is extrapolation rather than set in stone by-the-book rules.

A little more dificult ...
If the player is behind 2 diferent covers (example, the door and a hostage-NPC), or the door and a thin wall.
The damage roll is 30 (AP3) (Higger damage than before for calculation pourposes)
No save success for the covers...
I don't know how diferent layers of cover interact with the final damage.
If one of the covers makes his save the player takes no damage. Correct?

Okay, to hit roll ignores the cover for the door (presuming still has thermal sight) but will still have to beat the hostage cover (or not).
Shoot through the door as before leaving 27 damage, I'll assume the npc is quite good and has a damage save of +6. Now unless I'm mistake AP only counts against objects, not NPC's in the 2nd printing, so that knocks 6 points of damage off the attack, leaving 21 damage for the player.

If either save is made there will be no damage to the player, and I'd rule that if the npc hostage had Tough (what sort of hostage is he!?) then it wouldn't go through unless it was his final damage save.

This is again largely extrapolation and I wouldn't use shooting through at all except in hostage and similar situations.

[elpolloguerrillero]

Damage is rolled, door fails it's damage save so deduct the door's Damage Save from the damage rolled 18 - DR6 seems reasonable for a standard board door (3 after AP) so 15 damage.

OK, the damage save of the interpossing objects substracts from the final damage.  It seems logical to me but I can't find the exact rule in the book. That is why I post this questions, I can't find the answers in the core book.

As far as I can gather - this is all correct, but it seems wrong. I'll have to go through it better when I have time.

Vehicle damage is another problem to me. Put your players in this situation.... They travel in a car when an enemy NPC shoots a minigun mounted in another vehicle (Example: a helicopter ) againts them. The vehicle is destroyed... I guess.. but what happens to the players? I am not sure how to handle this situation.

Yep, I know this is a very strange situation, but I'm writing a military campaign, and need some standard rules to handle this type of scenarios. Change car by truck, tank, APC or whatever if you prefer more logical target for a ground attack helicopter.

House rules are welcome

[Desertpuma]

There is a difference between structural integrity and damaging the critical locations of a car. By some miraculous fate, it is possible for a car to be destroyed around its occupants. ... Check critical hits on vehicles in the beginning of the Gear chapter regarding vehicles. It should explain it there. The actual rule is fuzzy offhand since I do not have a book in front of me but if so much damage occurs to a vehicle in a single hit then there are critical locations that may be hit including Occupants. Other locations include Steering, Wheels/Tires, Engine, Fuel, and Cargo area. The damage location is selected at random but you can obviously just select what is most appropriate.

[elpolloguerrillero]

There is a difference between structural integrity and damaging the critical locations of a car. By some miraculous fate, it is possible for a car to be destroyed around its occupants. ... Check critical hits on vehicles in the beginning of the Gear chapter regarding vehicles. It should explain it there

Correct. But the random table is only for critical hits (Example: roll of 20 + Action dice) or "called shots" (I'll try to shot at the driver/tires... etc). No special rules for conventional damage.

Imagine this scene: The attack helicopter's minigun destroys the car  with 500 or more hight caliber rounds..., silence... the door of the car colapses to the ground.. Clank!... silence... one of the players step out of the car without a scratch. Smiles, takes a look at the car and say..... LOL! .

(or worse!!... )

He takes a look around and see the attack helicopter moving fast to another target, smile again...
-it's safe, you can go out.
The remaining players and NPC came out of the car without a single scratch. They take a look at the card and say (all at once) .... LOL!! 

I think I'm missing something but I can't find "what" or "where".

[Desertpuma]

Well there may not be an official ruling on it but you can always have the door in this case only stop part of the damage. Scenery, in this sense, only protects the occupants so much. Once the body of the car is essentially destroyed and remaining damage passes on to the characters.

In your example, I would have considered them hit after the 100th round if not earlier than that. The random table can be applied, IMHO, if enough the car or vehicle even is damaged. I have done this before when running Spycraft and even in LSpy I ran it that way as it seemed appropriate. 500 rounds from a minigun hitting anything unarmored will shred the vehicle (and I have the video clip at home to prove it). The armor would slow the damage down but over time it would surrender to the constant punishment. In my game, your PCs would have all been hurt if not dead.

[Krensky]

In all honesty, Spycraft isn't replicating combat in reality, it's replicating combat in fiction. I wouldn't worry about it.

Occupants take damage from the OCC crit and called shot, crashes, "left over" damage from autofire, and explosions.

[elpolloguerrillero]

In all honesty, Spycraft isn't replicating combat in reality, it's replicating combat in fiction. I wouldn't worry about it.

The core book doesn't cover this situations? No oficial rules for cover and trespassing damage? No official rules for passengers damage within a disabled/destroyed vehicle?
In this case I will need some house rules or an apropiated campaign quality.

Do you know one?  Someone has a solution for this type of situations?

One last thing.
Thaks to everyone participating in this thread.

[Krensky]

The core book doesn't cover this situations? No oficial rules for cover and trespassing damage? No official rules for passengers damage within a disabled/destroyed vehicle?
In this case I will need some house rules or an apropiated campaign quality.

That's not quite what I said.

The rules for stacking cover are on page 345 of the second printing.
Damage blowing through cover is never explictly stated, but taking the damage save rules and the OCC vehicle critical result rules leaves you with two choices:

1. Cover provides full protection until it breaks.
2. When it fails a damage save, even if it's not broken, subtract the DS from the damge done and apply to whatever is behind it.

In play, I would alternate between the two depending on what feels right.

When a moving vehicle is broken there is a chance it will crash. The rules for this are on page 291 of the second printing. If a moving vehicle is destroyed it automatically crashes.

Occupants in a vehicle that crashes take half of the damage the vehicle does, see page 365 of the second printing.

[elpolloguerrillero]

The rules for stacking cover are on page 345 of the second printing.
Damage blowing through cover is never explictly stated, but taking the damage save rules and the OCC vehicle critical result rules leaves you with two choices:

1. Cover provides full protection until it breaks.
2. When it fails a damage save, even if it's not broken, subtract the DS from the damge done and apply to whatever is behind it.

Thats sound logical to me. I think I was missing some rule in this extensive book. I probably will use this rule. Thank you.

When a moving vehicle is broken there is a chance it will crash. The rules for this are on page 291 of the second printing. If a moving vehicle is destroyed it automatically crashes.

Yes, I'm agree with you but what if the vehicle is stopped? Not a very weird situation indeed.
An ambush when they are in a stop, when they are parking the car, or the typical suspect "snoop-van" in front of the mastermind "house".

[Krensky]

Yes, I'm agree with you but what if the vehicle is stopped? Not a very weird situation indeed.
An ambush when they are in a stop, when they are parking the car, or the typical suspect "snoop-van" in front of the mastermind "house".

I'd probably call the vehicle cover then, unless the PCs were trying to flee or start a chase.