Bar Brawl Feat Chain. Opinions?

[TheTSKoala]

My first attempt at a Feat Chain.  Born out of a player's request for more "focused" ways to really destroy a place during a fight.  Opinions?  (Edit: Suggestions by MilitaJim, MugMug & famine.)

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Bar Brawl Basics
You've learned how to turn a simple, furnished room into a very, very dangerous place.
Prereq: Base Attack Bonus +1 or Higher
Benefit:   You gain +1 bonus to all unarmed and improvised weapon damage rolls.  Further more, you gain the following stance and trick.
Destructive Fury (Stance):  While in this stance, you endure a -2 penalty to defense.  Damage Save DCs for objects and scenes that take damage from the result of an unarmed or improvised weapon attack you make is increased by 1/2 your strength (rounded up). 
Head full of glass! (Trick):   You may use this trick while you are armed with an improvised, tiny weapon that has material: glass component.  Your initiative is +2 and, if the improvised weapon fails its Damage Save, it is destroyed (instead of broken) and the target gets the "Bleed" condition.

Bar Brawl Moves
Your presence voids many Homeowner's Insurances.
Prereq: Base Attack Bonus +3 or Higher
Benefit: You gain the following Tricks.
Have a.. SEAT! (Trick):  You may use this trick while you are armed with an improvised, small weapon that could be classified as a "Chair" or "Stool".  Your defense is +2 and you may not make any attacks this round.  If a character makes a melee attack against you and misses, you may immediately make a final attack on that character.  If the improvised weapon fails its Damage Save, it is destroyed (instead of broken) and the target gains the "Reeling" and "Vulnerable" condition.
Drinks are on the House! (Trick): You may use this trick while you are armed with an improvised, tiny or small weapon that contains a liquid.  Your target must make a reflex save vs. your Improvised Ranged Attack roll.  If the target fails, target gains the "stunned" condition for 1 round and "Blind" conidtion for 1d3 rounds.  Once used, the container is considered "Empty".
It's only Dry-Wall! (Trick):  This trick works the same as the Bullrush action with the following exceptions:  When calculating knockback, you are considered 1 size larger.  (2 sizes larger if this is your first attack in the scene.  3 sizes larger if this is your first attack in the scene and you have surprise.)  If the target destroys a wall during the knockback action, you let loose a terrifying roar, and you gain a +2 Bonus to melee damage and +1D8 Temporary Vitality for the remainder of the fight.

Bar Brawl Supremacy
You give new meaning to "Home Broken".
Prereq: Base Attack Bonus +12 or Higher, Bar Brawl Moves, Bar Brawl Basics
Benefit:   Once per round, whenever one of your attacks results in a 'destroyed' object, you gain +1d6 temporary Vitality.  Furthermore, while in combat in a private residence or public business (such as a bar, restaurant or hospital), your melee attacks gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls.  Finally, you also gain the following tricks.
Knock Knock! (Trick): You may use this trick when you and your opponent are adjacent to a door. On a successful melee attack on your opponent, apply any damage rolled to both your opponent and the door. If the door fails its Damage Save the following occur:
- The door is considered broken;
- Your opponent must make a Reflex save vs. Damage inflicted or become disarmed;
- Your opponent is knocked back 5 feet;
- Your opponent is rendered vulnerable for 1 round.
The Window.. the Second Story Window!(Trick):  Whenever one of your attacks causes knockback, and the attack results with an opponent triggering a Damage Save for a window, the window automatically fails, is considered destroyed, and the target of the attack suffers an additional 5 feet of knockback.  Falling damage (if any) is increased by 1.5x to the target and the target gains the "Bleed" Condition.

[MilitiaJim]

It definately captures the spirit of wrecking the place in a rumble.

But +1 to attack and damage might be a bit overpowered.  Reducing the penalty for improvised weapons might be more appropriate.

[TheTSKoala]

What about removing the +1 to attack, leaving the +1 to damage?  I wanted to have a 4th feat cost, but not force it down the throats.  Improved Weapon Basics is a no brainer, but you COULD use these feats without it.  You'd just be less effective than someone with the feat.  So, I'm hesitant to essentially double up IWB's effect into another feat.

[MilitiaJim]

I knew putting my Crafty pdfs on my iPod would come in handy.  Let me check the books.

And you're right about two feats duplicating the effect, though it is a defect I'm not sure it's a problem.  Your solution of +1 damage is a nice balance.

[ThunderMonkey]

Those will be great for superhero slugfests that take place in the middle of a street as well, or a Jackie Chan-esqe setting.

[famine]

Destructive Fury (Stance):  While in this stance, you endure a -2 penalty to defense.  Damage Save DCs for objects and scenes that take damage from the result of an unarmed or improvised weapon attack you make is reduced by 1/2 your strength (rounded up). 


Looking at this one, should the save DC for the object/scenery go UP by 1/2 your strength, essentially making it harder for the object to make the save?

[TheTSKoala]

Famine.  Nice catch!  I was reading the rules on hardness and the + to saves as I was writing that part.  Updating that now.

[famine]

I dig how the "Drinks are on the house" dovetails nicely into the "head full of glass" trick for a second action.  I tried making a skill-whore once, but my thug broke his neck in my mind before I could complete the concept.    I'll definitely be watching this one until you've finished.

[Desertpuma]

These look really nice....

[MugMug]

Recommend Have a... SEAT! grant a final attack instead of a regular ol' attack.

Knock Knock! is a little confusing as written. Initially it appears as if the door would be the target of your attack ("On a successful melee attack, and the Door fails its Damage Save"). The subsequent sentence suggests a character is the target ("the target of the attack is knocked back 5 feet, is considered vulnerable for 1 round, and if armed...). I'm guessing you're aiming at the idea of propelling (with a throw, your fists, whatever) your opponent through a door. If so, I suggest the following:

Knock Knock! (Trick): You may use this trick when you or your opponent are adjacent to a door. On a successful melee attack on your opponent, apply any damage rolled to both your opponent and the door. If the door fails its Damage Save the following occur:
* the door is considered broken;
* [I'm a little uncomfortable with the save or disarm thing, does it have a precedent in Spycraft? Maybe instead you get a free Disarm attempt, losing the opposed check for which does not cause you to be flat-footed.]
* your opponent is knocked through the door (to an adjacent square opposite the door from his initial position); and
* your opponent is rendered vulnerable for 1 round.

Walter

[TheTSKoala]

Final Attack.  Good idea. 

Okay.. how I made the mechanic was.. yes.. you are kicking the door, however, if you've ever seen (or done) a Dynamic entry, you can't really MISS a door.  So, I was using door as an armed / improvised weapon.  And with the force of a kick to a door which then hits a person, 9 times out of 10, you're breaking the door.  So your rewording works great.

On the Disarm thing.  If you've ever been hit BY a door, your first instinct is to either throw your hands up to regain your balance, or cover your face because it hurts.  At which point, if you're not smart, your weapon goes flying.  (I've been on CQC training teams.  Doors hurt.)  So, I just figured, you're 3 feats deep, plus you have to use a improvised weapon (so possible 4th feat), need to have an opponent near a door AND the door has to fail its save... so the deep cost would prevent that from being too broken.

[glimmerrat]

Whoa - i totally missed this thread. Permission to save and use Koala? I *totally* dig this.

[MugMug]

Okay.. how I made the mechanic was.. yes.. you are kicking the door, however, if you've ever seen (or done) a Dynamic entry, you can't really MISS a door.  So, I was using door as an armed / improvised weapon.  And with the force of a kick to a door which then hits a person, 9 times out of 10, you're breaking the door.  So your rewording works great.

That's handy, given that I had completely misunderstood the intent here. I had been thinking "kick the guy through a door," not "kick the door through a guy."

On the Disarm thing.  If you've ever been hit BY a door, your first instinct is to either throw your hands up to regain your balance, or cover your face because it hurts.  At which point, if you're not smart, your weapon goes flying.  (I've been on CQC training teams.  Doors hurt.)  So, I just figured, you're 3 feats deep, plus you have to use a improvised weapon (so possible 4th feat), need to have an opponent near a door AND the door has to fail its save... so the deep cost would prevent that from being too broken.

I wasn't questioning whether a potential disarm would be broken, just the mechanic used. I'm not motivated enought to seek out examples, but I could have sworn the typical mechanic would be to allow a free Disarm attempt with no downside (i.e. no chance of being flat-footed) rather than the recipient of your attentions having to make a save or be automatically disarmed.

On a different note:
Thinking on it, perhaps "sprawled" would be a better option than "vulnerable for one round." Not only does sprawled contain the vulnerable condition, but it makes more sense from a flavor perspective. If your dynamic entry was a surprise, you've got a chance to play havoc on a sprawled opponent, but if your opponent is on his toes he's got the chance to get back up and fight back.

Walter

[TheTSKoala]

Hmm.. Sprawled could work better.  My players are currently hogging all my books, so I can't do a quick reference.  As for the mechanic on Disarming.  My question is.. can you perform a "disarm attempt" on someone who's been knocked out of your 'zone of control'.  Or someone who's on the other side of a door?

[MugMug]

Hmm.. Sprawled could work better.  My players are currently hogging all my books, so I can't do a quick reference.  As for the mechanic on Disarming.  My question is.. can you perform a "disarm attempt" on someone who's been knocked out of your 'zone of control'.  Or someone who's on the other side of a door?

That's why I had placed it in the bulleted list below the door breaking and above effects on the opponent. The flow would look like this:

1) You initiate Knock Knock!.
2) FLAVOR --> You put the boot to the door.
3) Attack roll (i.e. does the door hit your opponent).
4) Damage save (i.e. does the door break).
5) Disarm check (i.e. does the door cause your opponent to drop his weapon).
6) Your opponent is knocked back 5 feet...
7) ...onto his ass (i.e. sprawled).

On a separate note:
You know, I'm still trying to figure out just how this feat is going to be useful. How often do you find an opponent hiding behind a door?

Walter