Autofire & Burst

[Yogobunzo]

After reading through an Autofire attack and a Burst trick, my players and I are trying to understand the bigger difference between the two other than with autofire, you can fire way more bullets into a target than burst. I see there's no penalties with burst trick other than the +1 error range, and with autofire, it's a -1 penalty for each volley & a +2 error range. They both work the same in that if you beat the defense by a certain number, either another volley or shot hits, and critical damage works the same for both. So really, we're trying to figure out why anyone at all would even use autofire. It just seems better to burst trick all the time than autofire, unless your intention is to swiss cheese a car with a 20mm vulcan. Is there something we're missing that can put the logic into our game with autofire. We sure could use the help.

[spinningdice]

I think pretty much Autofire is for when you can't miss. It is for shooting up vehicles, crowds and other large targets. Otherwise Bursts are (intentionally I think) more effective - which is why most armies train for short bursts rather than spraying bullets.

Of course I'm not a gun bunny by any stretch of the imagination so someone may come along and give you a better explanation

[Bill Whitmore]

Like so many other options, it really is situation dependent.  Burst Fire and Autofire are both designed to give a character with an easy chance to hit a method to increase damage.  For most situations, Burst Fire is going to be the way to go.  If a guy has an astronomical attack ability or the target has an abysmal defense (or possibly both) autofire starts to shine.

Large targets (like vehicles), stationary targets (like walls) and even guys in heavy armor (who have defense caps) may all be susceptible to autofire.

If you only need that 2+ to hit (and while I haven't seen that personally, I have seen a 4+ situation), coupled with the judicious use of action dice, it is quite possible to throw 10 volleys down range and have a chance to hit with all of them, especially with the right feats.  This example is a bit extreme, but oh so much fun to think about.

Other reasons to use autofire:
A flat-footed character ceases to be flat-footed after a successful attack.  If you burst fire twice, the target gets the rest of his defense back for the second burst-fire (assuming the first hit), but the target uses his same lowered defense for the whole autofire.

If you act in a surprise round, you may "take 1 free action, 1 half action, or 1 full action during a surprise round" and a "full action gained during a surprise round may not be split into 2 half actions".  That means you can either burst fire the target once, or autofire the target once (and this goes well with the flat-footed reason above).

IT'S JUST SO FRAKKING COOL!  Sometimes, you just want to throw lead around!

[aegis]

Quick question about that. One of my players swears he saw somewhere that, contrary to Burst, damage from multiple Autofire hits adds up and is applied only once to the target (which means less chances to miss a Damage Save but better DR penetration). Can anyone confirm or... ?

Thanks.

[Crafty_Pat]

Quick question about that. One of my players swears he saw somewhere that, contrary to Burst, damage from multiple Autofire hits adds up and is applied only once to the target (which means less chances to miss a Damage Save but better DR penetration). Can anyone confirm or... ?

Not true. Each shot's damage is applied independently.

[Mister Andersen]

I smell a feat...

[Crafty_Pat]

I smell a feat...

A feat chain would be required for something that big - and three deep might not even cover it.

[MilitiaJim]

I smell a feat...

A feat chain would be required for something that big - and three deep might not even cover it.

What about adding to the list of prerequisites either 15+ levels of Soldier or 10 levels of Grunt? 

Also, autofire is 10x kinds of groovy, where x is the rounds you fire in one burst.  (And I am told that illuminating a big grin with a glowing machine gun barrel is rather frightening, I can't comment, I was the grinner.)

[MilitiaJim]

Piercing Burst I
Prerequisites:  Autofire Mastery, CQB Basics, Sharpshooter Basics, Career Level 15+
Effect:  Allows agent to combine damage from additional bullets fired from Autofire, Burst, and Strafe actions.
Special:  The agent must have a forte with the weapon used.  Does not allow benefit from special (AP, hot) ammunition.

Example:  Agent X fires a two round burst from his Mk. 23 at a hapless mook.  Both rounds hit.  Instead of the mook making two saves against 1d12 damage, the mook makes one save against 2d12 damage.

Piercing Burst II
Prerequisites:  Autofire Mastery, CQB Basics, Sharpshooter Basics, Piercing Burst I, Career Level 16+
Effect:  Allows agent to combine damage from additional bullets fired from Autofire, Burst, and Strafe actions.
Special:  The agent must have a forte with the weapon used.  Does allow benefit from special (AP, hot) ammunition.

[aegis]

Thank you gentlemen. 

[OverNinja]

Piercing Burst I
Prerequisites:  Autofire Mastery, CQB Basics, Sharpshooter Basics, Career Level 15+, Forte (with weapon used)
Effect:  Allows agent to combine damage from additional bullets fired from Autofire, Burst, and Strafe actions.
Special: No benefit from special ammunition.

Example:  Agent X fires a two round burst from his Mk. 23 at a hapless mook.  Both rounds hit.  Instead of the mook making two saves against 1d12 damage, the mook makes one save against 2d12 damage.

Piercing Burst II
Prerequisites:  Autofire Mastery, CQB Basics, Sharpshooter Basics, Piercing Burst I, Career Level 16+, Forte (with weapon used)
Effect:  Allows agent to combine damage from additional bullets fired from Autofire, Burst, and Strafe actions.
Special: No benefit from special ammunition.

Edited to match common style.

[TheTSKoala]

Piercing Burst I
Prerequisites:  Autofire Mastery, CQB Basics, Sharpshooter Basics, Career Level 15+
Effect:  Allows agent to combine damage from additional bullets fired from Autofire, Burst, and Strafe actions.
Special:  The agent must have a forte with the weapon used.  Does not allow benefit from special (AP, hot) ammunition.

Example:  Agent X fires a two round burst from his Mk. 23 at a hapless mook.  Both rounds hit.  Instead of the mook making two saves against 1d12 damage, the mook makes one save against 2d12 damage.

Piercing Burst II
Prerequisites:  Autofire Mastery, CQB Basics, Sharpshooter Basics, Piercing Burst I, Career Level 16+
Effect:  Allows agent to combine damage from additional bullets fired from Autofire, Burst, and Strafe actions.
Special:  The agent must have a forte with the weapon used.  Does allow benefit from special (AP, hot) ammunition.

Just a balancing concern... ...this could.. in theory.. allow a SAW to be a one crew vehicle destruction medium.

Simplistic expamle.  Going to not input bracing, aim, recoil or weather...

Lets say I have a +18 to hit.  (+15 for level and +3 for Dex)  I take a 10 volley Autofire action with my SAW.  As long as I roll a.. 2 or higher... (essentially, anything other than a 1) I'm going to cause the tank to a possibly very difficult roll.  (Something along the lines of like 30+D4 vs. Damage).  Maximum slap there is in the 100 DC range.  The poor tank needs to roll a Triumph to survive a non-special ammo machine gun barrage.  

If you think that sounds slightly plausible, slap this feat onto a Cyclone-Class boat, and you can, if you get in-range, SINK an Aircraft Carrier with a Machine gun.

[MilitiaJim]

Thanks for the edit Ninja.

Koala, I think you need to run the numbers.  I will confess I didn't before I thought up that feat, but here is what I came up with:

Light Tank Defense = 19  Save bonus = +30
roll   BAB   Dex   Auto    Total   Effect   Dmg   Save
         Shot            Needed
         Penalty
5   15   3   -10   13   Nil             N/A
10   15   3   -10   18   Nil             N/A
15   15   3   -10   23   8d4   8-32   14-26
20   15   3   -10   28   12d4   12-48 16-34
AD    15   3   -10   59   40d4   40-160  30-90   

Until you practically score a triumph yourself, that SAW is not going to be hurting that light tank.  If you get a triumph against the tank, I think you're entitled to some fireworks.  Please check those numbers and let me know if I missed something.  Does someone want to draw a little graph of damage you can do with a SAW?

[Crafty_Alex]

.....aaaaaaaaaaaaaand there's the rub. Allowing all damage to occur simultaneously from a burst/volley can quickly anhilate vehicles. This is similar to the issue from 2.0 first printing, where gear accumulated damage like NPCs (which meant you could destroy a tank with a pistol given enough time and ammo), except that it can be even *more* reality shattering in that you're also removing the critical step of removing the item's only defense - its Damage Save - from the equation. Combine that with the crummy defense of most large objects and...you get the idea.

Fine as a house rule if your group doesn't care, but caveat emptor.

[Crafty_Alex]

Jim - I think that tank's def's a little high. A light tank has a Def of *9*, which translates to 3 more hits in your model at each level. A total roll of 49 would run cause 10 volleys to hit (with penalties included), which would give our theoretical SAW a 40d4 hit, averaging right around 100 points of damage. DC save would be 60 - impossible for the tank to save. Rinse and repeat.

For a less insane scenario, all you *really* have to do is get that save to a DC of 45 or so and the tank's pretty likely to fail. That means you need to average 70 damage in the attack (45 - 10 for base = 35 damage x 2).  Our 5.56 SAW averages 10 damage a hit, so that's 7 volleys. That means you need to exceed the target's Def by 28 (21 for the 7 volleys + a -7 penalty for 7 volleys), or a total of 37. Hard, but doable for a focused Soldier type.

Until you practically score a triumph yourself, that SAW is not going to be hurting that light tank.  If you get a triumph against the tank, I think you're entitled to some fireworks.  Please check those numbers and let me know if I missed something.  Does someone want to draw a little graph of damage you can do with a SAW?

Try those numbers with a Ma Deuce. (AP 10 built in, 2d12 damage). Eep.