ArsMagiCraft?

[iconoplast]

So, this idea came about because I lent my SpyCraft books out to a friend.  Day 1, he calls.  Says "We should play The Matrix."  An hour later.  "Forget that.  This is the perfect system for Shadowrun."  Today, he calls.  "Dude.  Iron Kingdoms."

(Note - Iron Kingdoms = Fantasy Steampunk WWI.  Steam Powered robots, "Archane Mechanika" cybernetics & gadgets, Gun Mages, &c)

So, we get to talking. Right - Mechanika as Gadgets.  No problem.  Magic system... we talk for a bit.  He says he can't wait to see Fantasy Craft.  I agree, then I remember this.

A guide to converting Ars Magica to d20. (link is to the free download of the 4th ed rules)

(Ars Magica in a nutshell: Mage, but you have to buy rotes.  You have Techniques [I create, I change, &c], and Forms [Fire, Animal, Mind, &c] - a spell will require ranks in two of these - e.g. FireBall would require a combined Creo Ignem score of X.  Success = Spell Cast.  Minor Failure = Cast, but you take Fatigue.  Bad Failure = Not Cast, also Fatigue.)

Now, even though this is in service to an eventual Iron Kingdoms setting, I think Mythic Europe and the covenants of Ars Magica had their fair share of intrigue and backstabbing.  And I really like Ars Magica's magic system.

So now I'm thinking... sure, you've got your Arts (Technique/Form) as Skills.  But then you could make Spells a kind of wealth.  And... and, pretty much, there you go.  You've got not just a working magic system, but a (kludged) conversion of what a lot of people consider to be the best magic system ever written.

[Rhishisikk]

Disclaimer:  I've never played Ars Magica.

The game rules look terrible, and I've actually played Palladium and RoleMaster.  There's literally no reason to play anything but a mage, and the system presumes that all players are just different types of specialists within that brand. 

That said, Amber Diceless and pretty much every superhero game written are variations of the same theme.  My problem with Ars Magica is more that I understand the theory of how the system works, and can't translate enough of the system to see if that's how it actually works.

That said, I'd call the power words either feats or gadgets.  Skills are far too easy to maximize, especially at high levels.  Unless you go the DnD route.  'Sorry, your knowledge of water won't work here.  Do you have a spell specifically to affect tobasco sauce?'

Mage I don't want to try because:
1) It's set in the World of Darkness
2) It's set in the World of Darkness
3) The unique and interesting elements of the system (like mundane magic suppression) are buried under unclear and/or poorly defined mechanics (like how to determine sphere levels for spells).
4) The only game I've HEARD of was basically 'who's the GM's friend?  Their magic works, nobody else can use Alka Seltzer to remove their headaches'. 
5)  It's set in the World of Darkness

Please don't turn this thread into a WoD discussion, post it under other topics, where it belongs.

All that said, for the time our fantasy game was Spycraft-based, the mechanics worked and I felt that as the cleric/mage I was balanced with the other players.  Also, although the game didn't last long enough, players were getting the idea that just because their character didn't SPECIALIZE in something didn't mean they weren't still good at it.  Our GM has a hobby of trying different systems in mid-game, trying to get just the RIGHT feel. 

But please don't let my ignorance of Ars Magica deter you; if you understand the system and it converts to D20, go with it and let us know how it works for you.

[TheAuldGrump]

I have to disagree in regards to 'horrible'. Ars Magica has the best magic system in any roleplaying game, bar none. And yes, the game is based around Magi - think of it as 'Harry Potter' not 'Lord of the Rings' - the center of the game is not an adventuring party, but rather a covenant, a gathering of mages. Closer to Hogwarts than a band of mercenaries. The mages are connected by shared resources and the need to live apart from mundane society. Time is often handled in seasons rather than days, with much of a character's advancement taking place in downtime and the covenant itself maturing over the course of a chronicle. I have run a game that went for two hundred years in game time, beginning with the founding of the Charterhouse Covenant and ending with its fall and rebirth - several generations of magi came into play over the four years the campaign ran. (Old age actually killed more of the characters than combat.)

Combat is not so hot, with the best version, in my not so humble opinion, being the one in Ars Magica third edition. Most of the time I used the much simpler, and less quirky fourth edition rules I have not tried the fifth edition of the game, but have many, many of the third and fourth edition supplements.

There are many, many reasons to play something other than a Magus - and when generating characters it is common to actually generate three for each player. The primary is in fact a Magus, the second is a Companion - a gifted, trained, or otherwise exceptional character, and the third is a Grog - a grunt, soldier, or other other physical character. Much like the original Mission: Impossible a team is made up to fit the needs of the current mission.

Players can and do swap between the characters during the course of a campaign, and sometimes during a single adventure. A scenario might begin with a spy found within the covenant, from the city of Toulouse let us say . Because a mage tends to stand out in a crowd, and really have better things to do with their time than go traipsing around a French city they might pick one of their number to accompany a troupe of companions and some men at arms into the city. (In the game I ran there was sometimes a 'drawing of straws', with the loser being the one sent.) One of the companions may be a sneaky sort, or they may rely on magic to provide intelligence, but everyone will have roles to play as they find out why a gem cutter in the Jewish Quarter of the city would risk his standing (and the possibility of being driven out of the city) to send spies into a stronghold of wizards, and how he found out that they were even there....

The Auld Grump

[iconoplast]

The game rules look terrible, and I've actually played Palladium and RoleMaster.  There's literally no reason to play anything but a mage, and the system presumes that all players are just different types of specialists within that brand. 
...
That said, I'd call the power words either feats or gadgets.  Skills are far too easy to maximize, especially at high levels.  Unless you go the DnD route.  'Sorry, your knowledge of water won't work here.  Do you have a spell specifically to affect tobasco sauce?'
...
But please don't let my ignorance of Ars Magica deter you; if you understand the system and it converts to D20, go with it and let us know how it works for you.

Well, I think you are misinterpreting what Ars Magica's trying to do. 

Ars Magica is a game about Mages.  It's a little more complicated, as TAG pointed out - but pretty much Magi are the point of the game and everyone's expected to make one at Chargen.

Quick Note - Awesome thing about Ars Magica?  Your mages advance most by not adventuring.  They get better at Magic by doing research in their lab.  The reason they would go adventuring is because the Covenant (comprising all PCs run by all players) as a whole needs something to ensure that the mage will continue to be able to hole himself up in his lab in the near future.

As you would imagine in a game about Mages that has survived five editions and I-don't-know-how-many publishers, Ars Magica has an amazing magic system.  It's the core appeal of the game, and it's the only part I want to lift.  Also, the central mechanic is d10 + modifier vs. difficulty, so the move to a d20-based roll doesn't require systemic realignment; conversion is more of a fresh coat of paint.

By making 'I can has magic' a feat, and then making the various Arts ('Power Words' is an interesting term for them - they're more like fields of study in Ars Magica, but the game would play the same if there were only fifteen magic words) skills, my intention is to facilitate multiclassing and encourage the idea that Magic's just another thing you may or may not be able to do. 

The problem is, properly speaking, they're not skills  - they're proficiencies.  You never roll Creo.  You just need to have sufficiently high levels of it to learn a spell.  Ars Magica has a separate casting stat for casting spells (and derived things like Parma Magica, Penetration, Laboratory Bonuses... lots of wonderfully baroque detailing - it's a game *about* mages, remember).

I like using Skills because it seems to me that it encourages a trade off - the more versatile you are w/r/t the kinds of spells you're able to learn, the less versatile you are w/r/t the other things you know how to do.  (Similarly, spells-as-wealth.  You can sink time/money into looking good, into having stuff, or into knowing spells). 

When you maximize your skills, you're maximizing the highest level spells you can know.  You still need to learn them (Wealth), and cast them (I have no idea.  Maybe BAB+Intelligence as a 'Magic Attack' value? BAB seems an abstract enough concept to let this work.)

I'm not totally convinced this is the best way to model magic, but I think it's the easiest way to model Ars Magica's magic system in d20.

Here's the issue, though: I have no idea of how to scale the power levels involved.  That's where I'm stalled in the conversion process.  As far as I can tell, Spycraft damage doesn't scale the way classic Fantasy damage does, so there's not the same exponential increase in power.  Basically, I like the new skills & new feat, I like using BAB as the casting value, but in terms of the actual spells it allows, I have no idea what to allow.

[heuristo]

Here's the issue, though: I have no idea of how to scale the power levels involved.  That's where I'm stalled in the conversion process.  As far as I can tell, Spycraft damage doesn't scale the way classic Fantasy damage does, so there's not the same exponential increase in power.  Basically, I like the new skills & new feat, I like using BAB as the casting value, but in terms of the actual spells it allows, I have no idea what to allow.

I have two suggestions here. 

One is to take a look at the first of Crafty's Spellbound series.  Many of the damage dealing spells are converted here; this might serve as a guideline.  Key I think is the fact that damage is based on caster level and not the caster check.

The other suggestion is to retask the NPC system.  Vitality points for NPCs range from 3 for for a Grade I Threat Level I character (say 1d6) to 150 for a Grade X Threat Level 20 character (say 46d6!).  The scaling appears linear across threat levels, but less than linear between the grades.

Of course damage isn't the only scaling issue  -- correct? 

Anyhow neat stuff -- I hope you keep at it and post the conversion.