Author Topic: Life, the World, and Everything in 2016 (general world news & social issues)  (Read 18098 times)

MilitiaJim

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Re: Life, the World, and Everything in 2016 (general world news & social issues)
« Reply #240 on: December 25, 2016, 12:30:41 PM »
... The kind that screams at the television screen every time one of "my" candidates falls into some stupid gun control trap when that ought to be about 7000th on your 'to do list' and you let the other guy strip your votes like husking corn. YIELD THE FUCKING POINT, MORON and focus your platform on shit that matters.
This.  I'm not voting for gun control ever.  Stop kicking away my vote you assholes.
"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)

Desertpuma

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Re: Life, the World, and Everything in 2016 (general world news & social issues)
« Reply #241 on: December 25, 2016, 05:09:43 PM »
... The kind that screams at the television screen every time one of "my" candidates falls into some stupid gun control trap when that ought to be about 7000th on your 'to do list' and you let the other guy strip your votes like husking corn. YIELD THE FUCKING POINT, MORON and focus your platform on shit that matters.
This.  I'm not voting for gun control ever.  Stop kicking away my vote you assholes.

I prefer to think of it as gun restriction because that is truly what it is ... restricting access to guns. They are tools and until they pull their own triggers they will be nothing but tools.


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Morgenstern

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Re: Life, the World, and Everything in 2016 (general world news & social issues)
« Reply #242 on: December 27, 2016, 01:27:50 AM »
This.  I'm not voting for gun control ever.  Stop kicking away my vote you assholes.

  Here. Let me try and convince you that sane gun control legislation can be written -- possible because it comes from the perspective of a game designer and not a platform-kissing politician.

  I don't know about you, but I can INSTANTLY tell if the person in front of me on the road or freeway is a first-generation driver. We get a LOT of them in California. Its obvious their 'automotive body language' is different. They're tentative, jerky, and constantly have minor lapses that might not qualify as 'mistakes' but certainly illustrate a lack of grace. I think people really underestimate the impact and don't grasp that growing up in a car, even in the backseat is an ongoing education about the sound, the feel, the entire kinesthetic awareness of what a well-controlled vehicle is like. Even as a little kid you imprint on the sound of the blinkers clicking before the car shifts. You don't have to be even big enough to see out the windows to have that cause-effect relationship drilled into your soft little gray cells.

  This isn't racism. It isn't "crap on immigrants" bigotry. Its brain chemistry and it's unavoidable. Their kids will drive better, and their grandkids will be just like every other road-wandering asshole who might kill you at any moment. Welcome to America. And trust me, compared to MANY other nations, we're the goddam soul of civility on the road because with 300 million drivers, you all have to follow the rules or people are going to die. Given how bad humans are at obeying any restrictions on their behavior, our freeways are a ****ing TRIUMPH of mutual cooperation and that's including the five digit annual fatalities.

  So you take note of those first generation folks struggling to control their car, you give them a little extra room for everyone's safety same as you would a drunk, and you go about you business. Awesome. That's how living together works.

  Now when you're Blue its easy, and sometimes even fun to look down your nose at those ignorant country-bred hicks but I'll tell you what: They know their guns. Bobby's been shooting since he was seven. Plenty of room out on the back forty to set up cans even if he'll never get a chance to go hunting. And Bobby's been taught to respect that gun. To load it, unload it, clean it. To under no circumstances ever point it an anyone. Loaded or not, because you always treat it like it's loaded. He's probably even well trained (informally, because that's just how it is in his home) to lock all the rifles up so the even younger ones can't accidentally get into them. The weapon -- or weapons, cause there's probably six or more guns around the house -- are part of the family culture and family armory. Heck, mom and sis shoot too, though maybe not as often. Bobby even knows that pistols and rifles and shotguns are all for different tasks.

  Bobby is a multi-generational gun owner, and just like a multi-generational driver, even at the age of 10, he has ENORMOUS advantages over Joe, the worried urbanite. Joe's just picked up a pistol. He's never shot, never seen what happens when you do shoot outside of the movies (which really is worse than no knowledge at all since in movies ****ing drywall will stop a bullet from hitting the big manly hero). But hes afraid and dang it, he's doing something about it. Thankfully what little good laws we do have required him to at least buy a gun box or a gun lock, because Joe's so disconnected from gun culture he doesn't know a damn thing about proper storage. Let me say that again: Joe only owns a gun box or gun lock because somebody MADE him buy one before they'd let him have a gun.

  Really, the best we could hope for is by some miracle Joe the worried urbanite drinks with a cop once in a while and he gets at least one boozy informal lesson on keeping his new handgun out of harms way. It's THAT BAD. Hell, I'm probably making things out better than they are for millions of urban gun owners. I've been to West Coast urban shooting ranges. They're not overflowing with customers in my experience. Sales are brisk, sure, but just target shooting to get to know your weapon? Not much... What? The movie said it's "point and shoot" right?

  So, I'm asking. I'm asking -- in same way you'd accept you have to put up with a few extra rules for mutual safety on the freeway, and same way you'd cut the first generation driver a little slack and know that you have to bend a little so there's not a collision even though its your right of way and he's a fucking moron -- to CONSIDER the occasional bit of legislation that's there to help Joe not make a terrible mistake that costs somebody Not-Joe their health or even their life. Its never occurred to Joe that one uncontrolled pull of that trigger endangers not only him, his wife, and his children far more so than any intruder. And because he's an urbanite that wild shot also endangers his neighbors for 2-3 suites in every direction. Because Joe doesn't have a back forty. In fact Joe doesn't even have a backyard. Joe is NOT a competent gun handler, and just like first generation drivers out there, it's unlikely he ever will become one in his entire lifetime. He is in fact the exact sort of ignorant hick he snickered about voting red in the Ozarks when it comes to firearms.

  I agree most of the legislation is shit. There's shit laws in place and there's more shit laws being pushed forward every election season. It's intrusive, it's poorly structured, it adds totally unnecessary enforcement costs to our overburdened police services budgets, and it generates landfills full of meaningless paperwork that doesn't do a goddam thing to achieve the only goal that ever mattered: keeping people safe. It's a reaction to FEAR rather than thoughtful prudence. Prudence makes good laws. Terror? Not so much.

  When I heard Bernie Sander's proposals (which I haven't dug into deeply, so I'm NOT going to proselytize about them) at least made a distinction between urban and rural gun ownership I was ecstatic. Holy shit: Prudence. From a Blue. Hallelujah. They are DIFFERENT THINGS and acting like one-size-fits-all is MADNESS. Believe me, I was seriously crestfallen at the wrangling that kept him from being a Blue-side candidate because for a few months there I really thought the Blues could put this bugaboo behind them with a couple of sane laws that made them not spend all their time running around, well, the metaphor fits, shooting their own foot off with the people who actually know their guns.

And really, that goes across color lines -- all my blue friends shoot and love to shoot, be it through the military, at private ranges or just out in their back forty. Yes, some Blues own a whole safe full of guns too and California's new ammo laws are a regular topic for complaining in my tribe. ****ing bullshit paper pushing waste of text. Shit laws once again.

  But read them. PLEASE. Give it due consideration from the broader perspective. Read them and see if there is a kernel of sanity, not for you and yours who have a back forty and train your kids to a high level of proficiency long before they can drive, but for the idiot urbanites who benefit from, and actually probably need some pretty firm hand rails to keep from blowing their own foot off. Yes, it's an inconvenience and possibly even an infringement at a Constitutional scale, but its also how living together works.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 03:37:26 PM by Morgenstern »
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ludomastro

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Re: Life, the World, and Everything in 2016 (general world news & social issues)
« Reply #243 on: December 27, 2016, 12:12:46 PM »
So, while I'm one of those rural gun owners my kids are suburbanites who are getting a second-hand firearm education because, surprise, my 1/4 of an acre yard is not sufficient to teach them better.  (I can only do so much each summer while at grandma's house and her back 40+.)  Thankfully, I seem to have gotten the basics drilled into my kids, even the 8-year-old.

However,
But read them. PLEASE. Give it due consideration from the broader perspective. Read them and see if there is a kernel of sanity, not for you and yours who have a back forty and train your kids to a high level of proficiency long before they can drive, but for the idiot urbanites who benefit from, and actually probably need some pretty firm hand rails to keep from blowing their own foot off. Yes, it's an inconvenience and possibly even an infringement at a Constitutional scale, but its also how living together works.

I was with you until the bolded part.  Infringement is NOT acceptable.  Just use another Amendment and it becomes obvious: "Free-speech zones are possibly an infringement at the Constitutional scale but that's the price of having civil discourse."

You will NEVER get me to vote for anyone who looks at guns like they are the problem.  Especially when the ignorance that you acknowledge (thanks for that) gets in the way of making even a little bit of sense.  ("The black thing that goes up," being my favorite dumb quote.)  Instead, let's try to enforce the laws we have before making more.  I'd be mostly OK with that. 

Agent 333

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Re: Life, the World, and Everything in 2016 (general world news & social issues)
« Reply #244 on: December 27, 2016, 12:16:24 PM »
Lots of stuff.

This forum needs a like button.
When all your problems are nails, all your tools start looking like hammers.

Morgenstern

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Re: Life, the World, and Everything in 2016 (general world news & social issues)
« Reply #245 on: December 27, 2016, 02:30:20 PM »
So, while I'm one of those rural gun owners my kids are suburbanites who are getting a second-hand firearm education because, surprise, my 1/4 of an acre yard is not sufficient to teach them better.  (I can only do so much each summer while at grandma's house and her back 40+.)  Thankfully, I seem to have gotten the basics drilled into my kids, even the 8-year-old.

  Good man. That is more valuable than the entirety of the laws on the books in my book. Ok, mandatory lockable storage or gun locks is about on par, but yours is still way better if you can get it :).

I was with you until the bolded part.  Infringement is NOT acceptable.  Just use another Amendment and it becomes obvious: "Free-speech zones are possibly an infringement at the Constitutional scale but that's the price of having civil discourse."

  First generation drivers infringe on my right to live every single day. One of those rights not in the bill of rights because its in the document proper. I still cut them some slack. Because the reality is either I take one step back or we both die. And despite countless slippery slope fallacies, that one step isn't the launch pad to 62 kinds of DOOM. As a people we've already agreed there's going to be some infringement of the right to bear arms. The idea that the Second Amendment can be held up as an absolute is ludicrous. So now it's just trying to guide that quavering line with prudence instead of terror. And "don't touch it, don't even breathe on it" isn't prudence either. Fear of the line moving at all is still fear.

  I get how precious the right to bear arms is. But I also (look out, here comes that cold-eyed pragmatism again) feel that the battle to protect ourselves from a government in full despotic mode is not going to be fought with firearms. It's fought daily in the minds of the public through media saturation and control of knowledge. It is on the verge of already having been lost when we now shrug our shoulders at the phrase "post-fact era". The second amendment is to me the weirdest damn thing to hinge so many decisions on, because the reality is it no longer matters for the purpose it was put there. We are no longer a nation whose military arm is made up of foot soldiers with muskets and bayonets. "When they come for you" they aren't gonna be dissuaded by a few guns. Sorry, they're just not. If it comes to a display of scrappy guerilla resistance, "the resistance" is going to die in a drone strike they never see or hear. End of fairy tale. Real resistance to despotism now has to take place about a hundred steps earlier in the process (spoilers: they won't ever "come for you" because it's now cheaper and easier to just pacify you and deny you any knowledge that things have gone bad).

Quote
You will NEVER get me to vote for anyone who looks at guns like they are the problem.  Especially when the ignorance that you acknowledge (thanks for that) gets in the way of making even a little bit of sense.  ("The black thing that goes up," being my favorite dumb quote.)  Instead, let's try to enforce the laws we have before making more.  I'd be mostly OK with that.

  I am with you to the extent that the Blue platform needs to be seriously re-educated when it comes to guns. They have a bizarre habit of picking an unwinnable fight for a goal they're not actually moving towards. And they do it to appease a base that's agonizingly ignorant about the 'hot button topic' that really they forget about when it's not being pitched to them in a campaign ad and there's no INCREDIBLY LOCALIZED atrocity on the news whipping up the fear stink amongst the sheep.

  And there are so very, very many issues I'm 100% on board that enabling enforcement trumps all new legislature. Small aside, but I had a signature gatherer come to me with a proposition for additional legislation against human trafficking~
  I asked, "Isn't that already illegal?"
  "Yes."
  "Does your proposal in any way obligate the state to commit funds to enforcement of the existing statues?"
  "No..."
  "Then come back to me when it does and I'll sign it."
  They looked bemused and wandered on. I am a bad, bad Blue voter ;).

  My ideal "gun control policy" is so simple it's breathtaking:
Spoiler: show
National Mandatory Service - 3 years military track or 4 years bureaucratic track. Done. No exceptions. Age 20, you pack your bags. And regardless of path, you get firearms instruction.

  I believe 90% of the remaining problems fall away when A.) Everyone is proficient with guns (hey, it works in civilized countries like Switzerland...) and B.) our most disadvantaged have been put in the same box as the more fortunate and required to live, eat, and work with them, and have been given a clear path out of destitution simply by staying in.

  But there's a lot of less radical streamlining we could all benefit from :).
« Last Edit: December 27, 2016, 02:40:06 PM by Morgenstern »
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MilitiaJim

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Re: Life, the World, and Everything in 2016 (general world news & social issues)
« Reply #246 on: December 28, 2016, 09:04:59 AM »
I'm not on board with the "mandatory service" thing, but adding firearm safety to middle school curricula would be a very good idea.  Shooting sports are coming back to schools, and that is good.  You aren't going to find good space in most cities for trap and skeet ranges, but pellet and rifle ranges can be safely set up in lots of places.

Safe storage is a good idea.  Safe storage laws are just another poll tax and won't increase safety but will be used to screw over poor (not white) people.

And about licensing drivers:  I'm not sure it works as intended.  (I'm assuming the intention is to increase road safety.  If there is some other purpose, they may be working just fine.)
"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)

ludomastro

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Re: Life, the World, and Everything in 2016 (general world news & social issues)
« Reply #247 on: December 28, 2016, 11:21:52 AM »

  And there are so very, very many issues I'm 100% on board that enabling enforcement trumps all new legislature. Small aside, but I had a signature gatherer come to me with a proposition for additional legislation against human trafficking~
  I asked, "Isn't that already illegal?"
  "Yes."
  "Does your proposal in any way obligate the state to commit funds to enforcement of the existing statues?"
  "No..."
  "Then come back to me when it does and I'll sign it."
  They looked bemused and wandered on. I am a bad, bad Blue voter ;).
You're not a bad voter at all.  Good on you for reading and thinking about the petition.  I'm still amused about the folks who went to an environmental rally and got something like 3,000 signatures to ban "di-hydrogen monoxide" aka H2O aka water.

As a people we've already agreed there's going to be some infringement of the right to bear arms. The idea that the Second Amendment can be held up as an absolute is ludicrous. So now it's just trying to guide that quavering line with prudence instead of terror. And "don't touch it, don't even breathe on it" isn't prudence either. Fear of the line moving at all is still fear.

  I get how precious the right to bear arms is. But I also (look out, here comes that cold-eyed pragmatism again) feel that the battle to protect ourselves from a government in full despotic mode is not going to be fought with firearms. It's fought daily in the minds of the public through media saturation and control of knowledge. It is on the verge of already having been lost when we now shrug our shoulders at the phrase "post-fact era". The second amendment is to me the weirdest damn thing to hinge so many decisions on, because the reality is it no longer matters for the purpose it was put there. We are no longer a nation whose military arm is made up of foot soldiers with muskets and bayonets. "When they come for you" they aren't gonna be dissuaded by a few guns. Sorry, they're just not. If it comes to a display of scrappy guerilla resistance, "the resistance" is going to die in a drone strike they never see or hear. End of fairy tale. Real resistance to despotism now has to take place about a hundred steps earlier in the process (spoilers: they won't ever "come for you" because it's now cheaper and easier to just pacify you and deny you any knowledge that things have gone bad).
I'm not naive enough to go die on that hill - you know, the one were I and my rag-tag bunch of misfits take on the government.  You are absolutely correct about drone strikes and the like.  However, I've noted that police tend to take a far different tack with people who are carrying.  Please note, I'm not advocating being armed to make police afraid - that way lies madness ... and death.  I'm merely pointing out that armed people do not get steam-rolled by lightly armed peace officers.  They get military drones which is, oddly, an argument for being armed.  (In the sense of being taken seriously.)

My fear - yes, I acknowledge it for what it is - is that anytime we give the government more power they take it and then some.  Letting my right to effective self defense get turned into a government controlled privilege is counter to the very notion that I have a RIGHT to self defense.  My bluest of blue work friends agrees that self defense is a right but she then turns around and balks when talking about guns as if the mere fact that I would use a gun in self defense somehow invalidates the concept of self defense.  Her apparent contradiction strikes her as odd and me as simply incomprehensible.  Handing the government the power to say, "You may defend yourself with your fists.  You, over there, may defend yourself with a stick.  And, you, next to me may use a gun." flies in the face of equal protection under the law.

I'm far more interested in fighting big government and big data and the inevitable merger of the two with words and education.  I find myself agreeing with you Blue folks on civil liberties quite often - one of the perks of being libertarian in thought.  TPP was a nightmare of Orwellian proportions and the vast majority of America was ignorant of it.  Or, thought it was a good trade deal.  But then again, I'm the guy who sat down at the mortgage office and starting reading the fine print on the inch-thick (2.5 cm) stack of papers they put in front of me.  When they said, "Are you actually going to read all of it?!"  I merely looked up and said, "Yes, if I'm signing away this much of my freedom I'm going to read it.  Go pour yourself some coffee or tea and settle in for a wait."  So, perhaps, I'm not typical.  Nonetheless, I'm with you on keeping people educated.

A great after-dinner conversation one night was me disassembling my carry pistol on the dining room table and letting everyone ask questions.  Sucks the curiosity factor right out of them when Dad is cool with them touching the spring, magazine, etc. and answering all the questions they can throw out there.  I've even let the older two boys shoot it (at Grandma's) but that immediately removed any desire to fire it again.  The younger boy was watching and he was good with the demonstration.  They're much happier with their less noisy, less recoil bound .22 rifles.

For anyone thinking that smaller magazines actually matter, please watch this video.  Hint: They don't.  And this is a perfect example of the bad legislation you mention.

Safe storage laws are just another poll tax and won't increase safety but will be used to screw over poor (not white) people.
This.  So much this.  Let me take responsibility for my own actions.  I don't need the government to play nanny for me or my children.

MilitiaJim

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Re: Life, the World, and Everything in 2016 (general world news & social issues)
« Reply #248 on: December 28, 2016, 01:02:49 PM »
You aren't typical.  Thank you for reading the fine print.  Enough people need to or the bastards will be even less honest.  Different folks can read different bits of the fine print.  (I knew a guy who read balance sheets for fun.  God rest his soul.)
"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."  ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool  in the killer's hands.")
- Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)

Desertpuma

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Re: Life, the World, and Everything in 2016 (general world news & social issues)
« Reply #249 on: December 30, 2016, 12:02:26 PM »
The Banshee Net strikes:

https://www.rt.com/usa/372312-bilderberg-website-hacked/

Anonymous and Hackback have hacked the Bilderberg website giving them a warning of bad things to occur in one year if they do not work for the betterment of people.


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