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Author Topic: Big Score Question  (Read 3097 times)
Salsa
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« on: January 22, 2008, 05:40:15 PM »

Well I'd like the approximate release date for The Big Score.
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Crafty_Pat
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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2008, 05:45:47 PM »

Well I'd like the approximate release date for The Big Score.

Please go here.

Thanks.
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Patrick Kapera
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2008, 03:28:26 PM »

Will Big Score also include fantasy gear, or is that in Phat Loot? I read somewhere that Phat Loot and Big Score was merged together. And another person her said they're two different pdfs. What's correct? Tongue

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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2008, 03:47:13 PM »

Fantasy gear will be found in Fantasy Craft, oddly enough Tongue Big Score will focus on new gear systems, as well as supporting rules/costs for things that don't have them in the standard 2.0 gear rules.
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2008, 03:54:23 PM »

So will Big Score, with it's new system, make it easier to create stories in the more traditional sense. Most of the players in my group like stories that are one long narrative, not being broken up into missions and scenes.

Fantasy gear in fantasy craft? Doh!  Roll Eyes of course.. Tongue
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Crafty_Pat
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2008, 07:05:02 PM »

So will Big Score, with it's new system, make it easier to create stories in the more traditional sense. Most of the players in my group like stories that are one long narrative, not being broken up into missions and scenes.

Yes. It'll transform the Spycraft gear system into something more traditional, with cash and purchase prices and such. The product won't include gear, though, because it's intended to be applied to any game in any genre as you prefer.

EDIT: Scaled back the unintentional bile. Smiley
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 08:36:29 PM by Crafty_Pat » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2008, 08:09:19 PM »

Wow. This sounds very much like someone who is producing something they hate. I can almost see your eyes rolling as you speak Pat. "YEs, here's the book so you can play games just like everyone else instead of being creative and original".

Admittedly, Big Score is not on my jonesing to see it list, but your attitude is amusing.
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Crafty_Pat
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2008, 08:35:02 PM »

Wow. This sounds very much like someone who is producing something they hate. I can almost see your eyes rolling as you speak Pat. "YEs, here's the book so you can play games just like everyone else instead of being creative and original".

Admittedly, Big Score is not on my jonesing to see it list, but your attitude is amusing.


My apologies. I should probably have worded that less caustically. I'm not a fan of traditional gear systems by any stretch, it's true, but that's no reason to take it out on Big Score, which is a fine product for those who want it. Smiley

EDIT: It's not, for the record, that I think the Spycraft system is more creative or original than traditional gear systems, but that I feel traditional gear systems are inherently imbalanced and in most cases flatly broken. In any game featuring a cash economy, you have to do one of the following...

a) Artificially limit a character's income (or come up with some reason to take it away from them after the fact, which seems equally offensive),

b) Overwhelm the characters with so many expenses that they can't accumulate enough cash to 'break' the system,

c) Not include anything they can purchase that is inherently better than stuff they get as a matter of natural character progression (in which case, why bother with the economy, other than to let people say, "I have stuff" and needlessly track pointless gear), or

d) Accept that there's an obvious loophole in your game that lets people ignore the rules, and likely many challenges that should be inherent to a compelling RPG.

I find that most games - even ones that are well-balanced in every other aspect - simply fall apart the second the characters score their first dragon horde, or high-end weapon cache, or whatever. After that, the rest of the game's rules are largely meaningless because the team can always just pull up the floorboards and use their stacks of cash/coin or the mega-weapon to bypass the fun part of any scenario.

It's just not how I like to have fun - as a player, a GC, or a designer. Of course, my opinion's unimportant here, because it's your game and you should be able to play it as you want. Smiley
« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 09:00:34 PM by Crafty_Pat » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2008, 09:08:46 PM »

Who is writing the big score? I hope it's not you. Not because you're not capable of doing a bang up job, but because no one should be writing something they obviously hate.
1> Your not exactly rolling in a big money industry. We like to think your doing the job you love.



A few years back I saw an Arlo Guthrie concert. I was half wondering how and if some version of "Alilce's Restaraunt" would make it in. It did. It was one of hte worst half hours of my life. He played it, and he was so filled with bile and resentment that you cuold just feel it pourinig off of him.
"I've been playing this song for 25 years, and I'll be playnig it for another 25 years."

He hurt, and it hurt to watch him. There was no joy or love. I was so glad when it was over and he could do songs he loved.

so
2> Gamings a labor of love. Creativity suffers if you don't love what your doing.


I agree with most of your points. My way around it in fantasy games was always to run games where magic only belongs to the elite. You can have all the money you went, but magic items can not be purchased, ever,only found, or sometimes made.

Most real world items in those settings have enough down sides for me not to care.

Modern Settings I usually played hero, using point based item systems for most of the reasons you outline. The fact that gear was 'controlled' much like it was in hero was one of the big bonuses to playing Spycraft.


So my vote is dump the Big Score like a hot potatoe. Go on to do things you like and care about. Screw that noise as it were.

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Crafty_Pat
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« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2008, 09:35:25 PM »

Who is writing the big score? I hope it's not you. Not because you're not capable of doing a bang up job, but because no one should be writing something they obviously hate.

We couldn't agree more. That's why I'm not involved beyond editing the fine work that Alex and Scott are forging with this one. Smiley

Quote
1> Your not exactly rolling in a big money industry. We like to think your doing the job you love.

Once again, we're with you. That's why we've structured the company as we have. Like Spycraft, it's compartmentalized. Everyone has a say in everything, but only the folks who dig something actually do the creative work on it.

There was a brief period where I was writing Big Score (more out of necessity than anything else - at the time, everyone else was busy). My disgust with the project was obvious, though, so instead of having me continue we shelved the project until someone else was free. Thus some of the delay we've seen with it.

Don't worry - we're not about to sacrifice a product's quality by forcing someone to write something they dislike. Each of us would sooner wait to find our mojo, or find someone else who can take it on.

Quote
I agree with most of your points. My way around it in fantasy games was always to run games where magic only belongs to the elite. You can have all the money you went, but magic items can not be purchased, ever,only found, or sometimes made.

It's a workable solution, but not applicable in a toolkit because you have to plan for any setting with any economic baseline, and there's a lot of folks out there who dig the "break the system" version popularized by D&D. So we have to allow for it.

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Most real world items in those settings have enough down sides for me not to care.

That's true in most fantasy settings, though not all.

Quote
Modern Settings I usually played hero, using point based item systems for most of the reasons you outline. The fact that gear was 'controlled' much like it was in hero was one of the big bonuses to playing Spycraft.

Like minds. I love modern roleplaying, but characters might as well be trigger fingers with legs if you include some of the stuff available out there right now.

Quote
So my vote is dump the Big Score like a hot potatoe. Go on to do things you like and care about. Screw that noise as it were.

We have four partners, and the other two of the three who write aren't as passionate about this as I am. We have a draft in and it's on my pile to edit soon. We should be able to get it out there with little to no bias. Smiley
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Patrick Kapera
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« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2008, 10:04:54 PM »

I agree that a Monty hall game can be a pain to run. I used to run fantasy games and kept the amount of magic items the players had access to limited. I think that the Bond movies have it somewhat correct in the sense that Bond has what appears to be an unlimited expense account on missions. He does not use it to abuse.  I think the cars he drives are excessive, not for the gadgets but the make and model.

The players can have unlimited access to money. The problem is that the source of the money knows the location of the players at all times. If the players ever have to deal with a betrayal in the organization they work for, that source will dry up. If you say they will bribe everybody they think might be able to provide them with information, I say there is a visibility factor with said money. Somebody comes around throwing money around is going to get noticed. People will want that money and will get in the way trying to get it. They would do this by trying to befriend the players and drawing attention to them, or by setting up ambushes to trap and extort money from them. As far as worrying about them trying to buy stuff and making a bunch of bunkers to store this stuff in, just rule that they turn in expense reports that are not played out in the game. Require them to spend feats to get the safe houses.

I do believe there should be some stuff that should not be purchasable by the players.

Missions need to be lean and easily relocated without drawing attention to the parent organization. You would need to establish this upfront with the players. If they start going down the wrong path you open up exposure to them and show them that being visible is not the best route to take. I think with this you remove much of the value of money. Make it more of a burden or at least make them think about how to spend that money carefully.
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« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2008, 11:41:48 PM »

I prefer to abstract money and restrict gear to what's appropriate for the mission at hand. I don't like to simulate it because I think it becomes too much of a headache for all involved - it's just too dense a topic that yields too little in actual play. Come up with a simple way for the characters to have appropriate gear and either justify it as needed or leave it an undefined, unimportant part of the process. That's how I'd run all the time if I could. Unfortunately, without rules to support such an approach, it usually boils down to the players trying to barter with the GC for more, which drags the game back to what I don't want. Thus my preference for an abstract system with no real-world correlation at all. With no parallels to the real world, there can be no haggling. You get straight to the meat of the mission.

Of course, most people seem to think I'm a freak for this, and I'm willing to accept that. Thus my support for Big Score, even if I'll never use it.
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« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2008, 11:46:38 PM »

I'm quite happy the way things are, I'll probably pick up Big Score and may even use it if the situation warrants it, but I've become quite attached to the SC gearing up (now that we've got better tables...)
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2008, 03:03:51 AM »

Well, I really like the system in Spycraft for gear, but it's not suitable for all types of campaigns. I like to have options. For example, I ran a campaign some years ago, a d20 Modern version of Fantasy Flight Games' Nocturnum (I love that story, but I really don't like d20 Modern). My take on that story was that the characters were criminals on the run from a botched bank robbery, but it was their former partners, the mob in LA who were after them. They had an old American car, guns and a suitcase full of money. Think Tarantino meets HP Lovecraft. Anyway, the campaign became one long narrative, and they had to save every piece of equipment and every 9mm bullet. So in campaigns like that, with no supporting Agency or similar, a cash and carry system is better in my opinion.
But I really like movies like Mission Impossible, the Bourne Trilogy and Casino Royale. The rules in Spycraft are excellent for that. Smiley

But again, I like to have options, and I buy just about everything Crafty releases anyway, so.. Smiley

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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2008, 03:23:10 AM »

since money came up, and the coffers it came from, I thought I'd share what I just did in that regard. The company the group works for is corrupt, and the groups weeds it out. They all have substantial reputions, having spent not a lick of it.
They wanted to form their own agency. So they call in every favor from the agency and outside that they have. Two guys maintain their roles in the agency in order to steal gear/equipment/personel and funnel it into the new agency.

In effect, they burned all their rep points, dropping down to anywhere between 5 and 1. (the thieves dropped to 1) and used the cash to build the new agency.
They took a couple years down time, and built up quite nicely. I don't know if that's how it was supposed to work, but I wasn't going to rob them of points because the story screwed them, and it made sense. But does that sound about right to everyone else? Did I grant the money to easily?
Should the rep have been attached to the agnecy, and therefore lost when they left?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2008, 03:27:20 AM by NezMaster » Logged

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