Spycraft without Pre-Reqs?

[Sletchman]

By the old eyeball test, alot of Spycraft feats seem roughly on par with their fantasycraft equilivents, but with one huge difference, the pre-reqs.  A first level character in FC can conceivably have [weapon type] Supremacy, but it requires a minimum of 9th level for SC characters to achieve the same.

This all said, has anyone run, or considered running spycraft essentially pre-req free?  Obviously I'd keep the Expert Class and Master-Class pre-reqs the same, and make feat pre-reqs more like FC [mastery requires basics etc, but no bab requirement].

Off the top of my head the biggest problem would be changing the wording of melee supremacies and "Target in the Well" from "kill the target" to "fails a damage save".  Anyone see any other potential problem points?  Or have experiance I can learn from?

[Mister Andersen]

I for one have never liked level-based preqs for feats, and I seem to recall Alex or Pat mentioning specifically that such preqs were ganked for Mastercraft because they were seen as hampering enjoyment of the system because of the way it turned out a lot of games were being played.

[Psion]

Wow. That's one of my least favorite changes to FC. I always hated in core d20 that skills were treated as afterthoughts, and liked the way in SC the feats linked to skill pre-reqs enforced some internal consistency and made a meaningful connection of skills to combat.

[Sletchman]

Wow. That's one of my least favorite changes to FC. I always hated in core d20 that skills were treated as afterthoughts, and liked the way in SC the feats linked to skill pre-reqs enforced some internal consistency and made a meaningful connection of skills to combat.

I'm not sure I follow here?  All I want to get rid of is level and base attack as requirements, not change skills.

Unless you mean "combat skill", in which case consider 3 feats invested to be a good indication of skill level.  Plus 90% of games I've played in don't get to 12th+ level, so "supremacy" never really comes into play, which is something I love about mastercraft.

[Psion]

Wow. That's one of my least favorite changes to FC. I always hated in core d20 that skills were treated as afterthoughts, and liked the way in SC the feats linked to skill pre-reqs enforced some internal consistency and made a meaningful connection of skills to combat.

I'm not sure I follow here?  All I want to get rid of is level and base attack as requirements, not change skills.

Sorry, I was alluding more to the b/m/s type feats that have skill ranks as prereqs (ambush, mingling, etc.). Perhaps we are mostly talking about different things.

Though I'll note the absence of the bab prereq makes heartseeker less meaningful.

Unless you mean "combat skill", in which case consider 3 feats invested to be a good indication of skill level.  Plus 90% of games I've played in don't get to 12th+ level, so "supremacy" never really comes into play, which is something I love about mastercraft.

WRT the skill related feats, that's one reason why the skill-rank-extender class abilities and feats (scientist class, untapped potential, etc.) more desirable.

I will say despite not liking the change, I recognize that it works, but it seems to me that part of the reason it works is that the feats are a bit smaller in scope, making them more on par with any other choice the character might have.

[Desertpuma]

Wow. That's one of my least favorite changes to FC. I always hated in core d20 that skills were treated as afterthoughts, and liked the way in SC the feats linked to skill pre-reqs enforced some internal consistency and made a meaningful connection of skills to combat.

I'm not sure I follow here?  All I want to get rid of is level and base attack as requirements, not change skills.

Unless you mean "combat skill", in which case consider 3 feats invested to be a good indication of skill level.  Plus 90% of games I've played in don't get to 12th+ level, so "supremacy" never really comes into play, which is something I love about mastercraft.

I would not get rid of them. Lower them maybe to 6th from 12th but I would never get rid of them.

[Sletchman]

I would not get rid of them. Lower them maybe to 6th from 12th but I would never get rid of them.

May I ask why?  Are the SC versions much more powerful then the FC versions?  I am considering lower pre-reqs, rather then straight elimination.  Ex: One of my favourite style feats, Venomous Dialogue rarely comes into play, due to its 12-15th level requirements.

[Desertpuma]

I would not get rid of them. Lower them maybe to 6th from 12th but I would never get rid of them.

May I ask why?  Are the SC versions much more powerful then the FC versions?  I am considering lower pre-reqs, rather then straight elimination.  Ex: One of my favourite style feats, Venomous Dialogue rarely comes into play, due to its 12-15th level requirements.

So drop the requirements down to 6th-9th. I have always felt that the requirements were there for more than just to keep people from jumping right to them. I think the requirements are necessary in certain cases. Just my opinion.