Quick 'flatfootedness' question

[meadicus]

Throughout SP 2.0 there are many tricks/attacks/actions which have as a downside of failure that the character then becomes flatfooted. However, whats to stop a character at the end of their round just spending a free action to be not flatfooted anymore?

[Gatac]

You get exactly as many free actions as the GC lets you take. It follows that not letting them take one after becoming flat-footed takes care of your problem.

Gatac

[Krensky]

By a strict reading of the rules, nothing as far as I can see.

Two things to remember, however:

1) A round is six seconds long and a lot of things can happen in it... but mechanically they're happening in a weird limbo. In some ways everything that happens in the six seconds happens all at once (which is why it's six seconds, not six seconds per character) and in some ways it's happening sequentially (which is why we don't apply all the damage and movement and etc results at the end of the round). This essentially means the GC decides what the timings are. Since taking a free action after everything else to avoid being flat-footed is essentially gaming the edge conditions I think you just say that it doesn't work like that.

2) There is nothing to prevent a player from taking the flat-footing action as his first standard action ad then doing something else (assuming the action is a standard one) and avoiding spending the round flat-footed.

Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with a house rule that since free actions are trivial things, they don't count as actions for purposes of being flat-footed. Either a page reference for a rule that we've missed, a clarification of intent or errata would help close an apparent loophole and keep the dark rules lawyers at bay.

[meadicus]

Thanks for the answers people,

2) There is nothing to prevent a player from taking the flat-footing action as his first standard action ad then doing something else (assuming the action is a standard one) and avoiding spending the round flat-footed.

I'd always considered this and simply concluded that the flat-footed penalty is in effect no penalty when it's only in their first half-action, only second or full-round action.

Also, I don't think there's anything wrong with a house rule that since free actions are trivial things, they don't count as actions for purposes of being flat-footed. Either a page reference for a rule that we've missed, a clarification of intent or errata would help close an apparent loophole and keep the dark rules lawyers at bay.

I think that's what I'm going to go with, now I just need to decide whether that includes 5-foot steps. Can someone step and remain flat footed? I think not, so that may have to be the exception.

[spinningdice]

5-ft steps aren't an action at all are they?
Personally I have a house rule (for some reason I was thinking it was an actual rule but can't find any reference to it) that flat-footed isn't removed by actions during the same turn it was gained, since (in my view at least) actions are occuring at the same time. You don't walk towards someone and then fire a 3-round burst, you dash forwards firing as you move.

[NezMaster]

5-ft steps aren't an action at all are they?
Personally I have a house rule (for some reason I was thinking it was an actual rule but can't find any reference to it) that flat-footed isn't removed by actions during the same turn it was gained, since (in my view at least) actions are occuring at the same time. You don't walk towards someone and then fire a 3-round burst, you dash forwards firing as you move.

This is the ruling I use, and it makes the most sense to me. Actually jpretty much my table just assumed if you gain a condition in one round, you will suffer from it for a round or lose an action taking care of it..or something.

[TheTSKoala]

5-ft steps aren't an action at all are they?
Personally I have a house rule (for some reason I was thinking it was an actual rule but can't find any reference to it) that flat-footed isn't removed by actions during the same turn it was gained, since (in my view at least) actions are occuring at the same time. You don't walk towards someone and then fire a 3-round burst, you dash forwards firing as you move.

This is the ruling I use, and it makes the most sense to me. Actually jpretty much my table just assumed if you gain a condition in one round, you will suffer from it for a round or lose an action taking care of it..or something.

Same on my table.  If you gain a condition, you either have to do something about it, or wait out the duration of the effect. 

[meadicus]

So guys do you keep that someone ceases being flat footed when someone attacks them or do you stick with giving flatfooted essentially a 1-round duration?

[Forcegypsy]

I'm just working from memory here, but I'm pretty sure that a successful attack removes the flat-footed condition from the target. IRC there are some ambush effects/abilities that contain wording that bypass this general rule. I'll look for the specific book reference when I have my book.

For some reason it's never come up in game, but I'm curious about the flat-footed condition if gained from a half-action. What happens if the active player then takes a second half-action? Morg?

[Morgenstern]

5-foots steps are not actions. They are more like rounding errors when dealing with the granularity of a 5' grid . Taking one does not relieve flat-footedness. (if there is one thing I am fond of for what I've seen out fo 4th ed D&D, its renaming them 'shifts'. SOOO much simpler to say and grasp!)

Most combat tricks that result in flat-footed if you fail can be attempted as your first action without concern. This is by design, as it lends another small tactical decision to your options - you have 2 half actions, but only one you might feel fully confident in trying some whahoo-crazy antics with.

Free actions do not relieve flat-footedness (this may require a formal clarification - I'll be examinig the relevant text). Being flat-footed is also a pretty strong justification for the GC dissallowing a free action, but as free actions cover such a huge range of potential ituations, I'd leave that to GC interpretation rather than wasting pages trying to quantify all the corner cases.

Good question!

[meadicus]

And an excellent answer, thanks very much Morg.

[Forcegypsy]

Sweet. Clarified and saved in the mental box for any future player inquiries. Totally agree on the elegant, yet brief Shift replacing the awkward and bumbling 'five-foot step' . As I understand it, there may be options that allow for a shift of more than 5 feet. I'm already going to adopt this change to my Spycraft game.

"Blowback shifts left, out of the line of fire, crouches and aims his pistol...", yep, I like.

[Morgenstern]

Oh, it does just roll off the tongue .

It may come as a shock, but I consider myself a D&D player and one who has done so going on 26 years. I LIKE when they do good work.

[Forcegypsy]

Oh, it does just roll off the tongue .

It may come as a shock, but I consider myself a D&D player and one who has done so going on 26 years. I LIKE when they do good work.

How is it a shock? Your rules-fu takes the d20 and puts it in a submission hold until it yields the results you're looking for. This mastery can't have developed in a vacuum . I'd be very surprised if a large number of Crafty fans weren't D&D players/gm's if for no other reason than it's the easiest RPG to find gamers for. When they do good work, it's better for everyone.

From the previews, they've already sold me on the 4e Players Guide and MM, if only as a reference work as it looks like there are going to be some really interesting choices made in the new edition.