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Off-Topic / Re: Hunting High Scores: Video Games 2018
« Last post by Morganti on February 15, 2018, 08:45:43 AM »
I re up my sub every new expac, and play for 6 months to a year.  fox race will make me at least level again and not be sad about it
Fantasy Craft / Re: Subdual damage, again (but different)
« Last post by SilvercatMoonpaw on February 15, 2018, 07:57:14 AM »
You could always just whittle the PCs down to negative Wounds and then just Rule they don't die from it "Because I want you alive".

It doesn't fix subdual itself, but if you're suck for other ways it might be better than nothing.
Fantasy Craft / Re: Subdual damage, again (but different)
« Last post by TKDB on February 15, 2018, 07:12:26 AM »
The thing about subdual damage is that it's generally just more static as far as how easy it is to pull off across levels. Characters' Fort saves go up with level, but not nearly do dramatically as Vitality. So at early levels, it's fairly easy to get killed with lethal damage, but comparatively hard to get KO'd by subdual. Conversely, at higher levels where you have a lot more vitality, subdual is often the easier takedown.

I would also second TheVastator's assessment that the numbers involved aren't really sufficient to pose a substantial threat. IIRC from your earlier thread, this was a mob of standard Men-at-Arms and the special leader you'd posted stats for, against a party of 7 PCs? I wouldn't really expect that to be much more than a speed bump for a competent party, honestly.

Though all things considered, I will say I agree with the overall premise that knocking people out is sometimes frustratingly difficult. The problem is, messing with that is a real two-edged sword; subdual damage is already sometimes considered to be a bit OP against specials at higher levels, and if you make it too much easier to knock people out that'll go from "sometimes considered OP" to "definitely OP". What's good for the goose is good for the gander; if you make it easy to knock out PCs, you also make it easy to knock out special NPCs. So there's definitely something not entirely satisfying about it, but it's tough to say what a good solution would be. I've tinkered with some ideas to link Vitality and subdual damage without just having subdual damage deduct Vitality (because I do like it being a way to circumvent large Vitality pools), but I haven't been able to come up with a way that makes sense without being overly cumbersome with math at the table.

I've personally used subdual to good effect as a GM, but it takes focus. You need a lot of NPCs (more than one mob), built for dishing out lots of subdual. The two main encounters that come to mind were (1) several mobs of various NPC types with cold damage attacks/spells, and (2) a few mobs of slightly modified Goons (without mook, added Wolf Pack Basics and Mastery, and wielding saps to take advantage of the half-action Pummel from Horde Mastery). In both cases, the PCs were very outnumbered (3 to 1 or worse), and the NPCs were built to dish out plenty of subdual.
Fantasy Craft / Re: Subdual damage, again (but different)
« Last post by SilvercatMoonpaw on February 15, 2018, 06:48:44 AM »
Just one question to make sure: were you remembering that subdual damage accumulates?  It's not "force a save vs the damage taken only this attack" it's "force a save vs the damage on every attack until you fail one".

If you really need subdual to get way nastier consider not having it reset to 0 every time a save is failed.  Eventually hits will pile up to the point at which the target just can't make their save.  Obviously you may want to tweak exactly how this works: if subdual never resets unless healed you're probably looking at only a few attacks before it becomes impossible to save against.
Off-Topic / Re: Hunting High Scores: Video Games 2018
« Last post by MilitiaJim on February 15, 2018, 06:30:48 AM »
 Well, now I'm more tempted to go back, maybe.
Fantasy Craft / Re: Subdual damage, again (but different)
« Last post by Desertpuma on February 15, 2018, 04:42:55 AM »
You can also have a group of archers who use bird arrows to start the combat. Bird arrows do subdual damage. In fact, elsewhere on the forums, someone recounted a tale of using a PC with a longbow and bird arrows who used Blackened Sky and Bow Supremacy to subdually pound someone to unconsciousness.

Also if the PCs are that dangerous then increase the number of mobs and have them rush the PCs so they are at a 2 or 3 to 1 disadvantage. Being at 3 to 1 odds against you when they are all adjacent and decide to Pummel is a pretty solid chance someone will go unconscious more quickly.
Fantasy Craft / Re: Subdual damage, again (but different)
« Last post by TheVastator on February 15, 2018, 03:50:52 AM »
alive doesn't necessarily mean unconscious.
You got lots of tools:
pummel (3d4 is still solid damage even for standard characters)
grapple, pin (when one character which maybe isn't exactly great with melee is locked in there, you can pile up on the others one at a time)
nets (entangled)


I can agree that the system is a bit wonky sometimes, but there are lots of ways to get the playing characters captured alive.
Did someone mention Terminal Situation?

"Ok, you're surprised by 10 people holding loaded crossbows at you from a vantage point, there is no nearby cover. They ask you to surrender. What do you do?"
Obviously this must not be misused or abused but it's a good way to let the players remind that there can be situations in which actually surrendering could be a good idea.

Also, one mob of standards isn't enough in my opinion in this situation, and it also depends on what abilities you gave them.Wolfpack feats or just the Swarm npc quality can do wonders even with subdual damage :)
As per example, imagine if your mob of 5 gets the swarm quality and they pummel. One action (so one character at a time being attacked but that's ok), but with a +5 to hit and double damage... pummel becomes 6d4+strenght modifier. Or with a subdual dealing weapon, again double damage, very useful against high dr targets. That would surely speed accumulating subdual :)
In the meanwhile, your special takes the brunt of the damage and tries to keep his buddies alive.
Fantasy Craft / Re: Subdual damage, again (but different)
« Last post by Mister Andersen 2.0 on February 15, 2018, 03:10:44 AM »
The simple damage route, where stress and subdual take away vitality the same as lethal damage, is probably the easiest way to increase the efficacy of non-lethal weapons.

You might also consider the idea of having characters suffer a grade of fatigued when their vitality is half depleted in addition to the current rule where you pick up a grade at 0 vitality, if you're looking at getting to the threshold faster.

Similarly, keen should be used to increase the save dc
Fantasy Craft / Subdual damage, again (but different)
« Last post by Viperion on February 15, 2018, 02:08:53 AM »
Hey folks,

Had a big combat in my game tonight (well, not that big really - one mob and one special character). The adversaries were under instructions to bring the PC's and the two children they were protecting in alive, so they were armed with Clubs and a War Hammer.

Their task was, frankly, impossible. At the end of the fight, all the adversaries were downed, and two of the PC's had Fatigue I. That's it. There was a smattering of subdual damage scattered around some of the other members of the party.

I should note at this point this is NOT a conversation about whether clubs and warhammers should inflict lethal damage. That particular conversation has been done to death around here.

This is a conversation about how hard it is to actually knock someone out. They need to fail five Fortitude saves. One on one, against someone inflicting lethal damage, this simply isn't possible. Edited to add: I'm not looking for a "one-hit" knockout solution either. That way then just becomes the de-facto way of taking everyone out, and no one wants that.

The fact that subdual damage and the vitality/wound system don't interact at all is odd. You can have a character on 0 Vitality and 1 Wound, but to knock them out you still need to hit them at least 5 times - and let's be honest, probably a lot more than that - before they fall unconscious.

If you think the system is fine, all good (this thread probably isn't for you ;) ). If you don't, what have you/would you change to make it play better? Off the top of my head I can't think of anything.

The combat went ~6 rounds or so. In that time, 2 out of 6 PC's failed a single Fortitude save each, and two others had subdual damage but made their saves (in one case, made something like 6 saves, the last one DC21). This is very very very very very very far from knocking out even a single PC, let alone the party. Had the adversaries been using lethal weapons, this would have been a much tougher fight. As it is, I don't think I'll ever use subdual damage as an attack strategy again, aside from the "outside of combat" Pummel special rule (and even then, 3d4 damage, averaging 7.5, means a DC13 Fortitude Save to be perfectly fine).

How have you folks changed the Subdual damage rules?
Off-Topic / Re: Hunting High Scores: Video Games 2018
« Last post by RusVal on February 14, 2018, 09:41:50 PM »
I've made it a point of pride that I haven't played a single second of World of Warcraft.

Now they've added the Vulpera, a cute little fox race.

NO!!  Must... resist... cuteness...
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