Back to Crafty Games Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 28, 2015, 05:12:23 AM
Home Help Search Login Register
News: Welcome to the Crafty Games Forums!

Note to New Members: To combat spam, we have instituted new rules: you must post 5 replies to existing threads before you can create new threads.

  Show Posts
Pages: 1 ... 230 231 [232] 233 234 ... 364
3466  Products / Fantasy Craft / Re: SOUND OFF: Potential Iconic Classes/Banned Actions Changes on: March 24, 2010, 09:44:40 PM
... the races rules were tested first in OoTS. i'm just wondering why change now? If it's because they really think that the rules doesn't work, ok.
There are more feats in Origin of the Species to cover more favored classes.  You chose between loosing two action dice or spending a feat.  Choice is the important part. 

(And I am fine with the species feat that lets you dodge iconic class penalties being pretty lame.)

*Chuckle*

Unforgettable
In a time of heroes, you carved out a legend.
Prerequisite: Iconic classes.
Benefit: Your Legend rises by 1 and your iconic class penalty is reduced to -1 action dice (instead of -2).
3467  Products / Fantasy Craft / Re: SOUND OFF: Potential Iconic Classes/Banned Actions Changes on: March 24, 2010, 09:29:10 PM
Quick table for consideration:
Level Base (%) Current (%) 1/2 (%)
 1-5    3(100%)   1 (33%)   2(66%)
 6-10   4(100%)   2 (50%)   2 (50%)
11-15  5(100%)   3 (60%)   3 (60%)
16-20  6(100%)   4 (66%)   3 (50%)
3468  Products / Fantasy Craft / Re: SOUND OFF: Potential Iconic Classes/Banned Actions Changes on: March 24, 2010, 09:21:51 PM
Yes, but I have to ask: would you complain if Iconic Classes got lightened up? "Wah! My Elf isn't getting penalized for manning up and going Soldier! YOU'RE RUINING MY GAME!"

So not the nature of the question Roll Eyes.

Allowing player-side bias to run rampant isn't a long term solution to much of anything Wink. No player of origins that get extra vitality per level would complain that they started getting 4 vitality per level instead of 1, but you would see a decline in people playing other origins.

The issues are
a) those races/talents with iconic classes are balanced around having a -1.0 penalty. They have to be re-writen one at a time, case by case unless there is a uniform replacemnt weighted at -1.0
b) there's a mass of feat support built around expanding that limitation by 1 class as a roughly .5 value. So the replacement (if any) has to be similarly extensible, AND that extention needs to hold a similar value.

What we have a mechanic that currently renders a -2 effect if you fight it, and a -0 if you play along. I've been told (repeatedly and at some length) that -2 action dice is too harsh and/or the range of options is too narrow. Obviously, at the time the origins were written, I didn't agree. For the most part I still don't, but there are two observations made since then that have colored my thinking.

1) I'm less enamoured that the penalty doesn't scale. While I don't feel that -2 is too severe (it is the correct scale for what's being granted), it does become less severe over time. That lead to my first suggestion: A penalty of 1/2 (round in player's favor) is nice in that it does scale to the level of play and can be tuned to be kinder to low level play.
2) I don't actually like that people building up in a non-iconic base class are under closer scrutiny and held to a higher standard than those that shift to expert/master classes. Pondering some kind of altered trigger follows this line of thought. Ironically the easiest fix is just to remove the word "base" from the text, but I'd be lynched if I seriously threw that out there Smiley. The simpler trigger idea may eventually produce fruit.

Either way, when the trigger gores off, the results should be harsh: it's a -1.0 thats avoidable, and most -1.0 penalties that aren't avoidable are plenty ugly enough.

Still thinking...
3469  Products / Fantasy Craft / Re: SOUND OFF: Potential Iconic Classes/Banned Actions Changes on: March 24, 2010, 08:02:05 PM
Stop making sense, man.

We'll have none of that here!
3470  Products / Fantasy Craft / Re: SOUND OFF: Potential Iconic Classes/Banned Actions Changes on: March 24, 2010, 07:59:25 PM
A character with Iconic Class penalties from AD will have to deal with having 1 AD/session for at least 3 adventures, per your earlier math...

Well, technically my earlier sugestion was play to type for 3 levels and you can have 2-3 levels of another base class and any combination of expert/master class levels without EVER suffering the penalties.

Which actually raises an interesting point for me - the trigger is at its most stringent during the first 5 levels of the game, and the penalty mechanic is ALSO at its most stringent duting that period. That double whammy makes me more inclined to go with the -1/2 action dice (rounding in the player's favor) than I was previously.

...I'm pondering the consequences of a modified trigger that only asks "do you have at least 1 level in one of your iconic classes? If not, X"
3471  Products / Fantasy Craft / Re: Ritual Weapons of Real World Pantheons on: March 24, 2010, 06:25:01 PM
There's no rule restricting whether or not you upgrade a ritual weapon (after all, if the Church's ritual weapon is a quarterstaff, a country priest should be able to have a wooden stick while the cardinal carries a gilt rod encrusted in jewels). The item you get as the base or when it's replaced, however, is always the same - you don't get the modifications you made back for free.

The system also allows for ritual weapons to be have upgrades 'programed' into them - longsword w/bleed rather than plain vanilla longsword.

I am now saddened there is no ceremonial upgrade for weapons, as there is for armor. If you were looking to 'nerf' a more pacafistic bunch, giving them a weapon with the built-in crude or ceremonial 'upgrade' would take the wind right out of their sails as fighty types.
3472  Products / Fantasy Craft / Re: Ritual Weapons of Real World Pantheons on: March 24, 2010, 06:18:29 PM
I always thought the symbolism of the holy cross and straight-bladed swords with crossguards was pretty obvious and even slightly deliberate. The image of a knight plunging his blade point first into the earth and kneeling to pray before it is about as iconic as it gets for me Smiley.

Or maybe it's just Archangel Michael's penchant for fiery-sword beatdowns Wink.
3473  Products / Fantasy Craft / Re: SOUND OFF: Potential Iconic Classes/Banned Actions Changes on: March 24, 2010, 06:07:35 PM
Teeth makes sense but not FANGS.  Those two action dice really hurt at 1st level, and there really aren't any ways around that.

There is one: play until you are 6th level. It's still -2 but now everyone is getting one more die than before.

Actually that suggests a way of making it more uniform at all levels of play, and you can even weight it to be a little more kind to low level play:

Iconic Classes: If you possess more levels in any base class than your highest level in either the [Class A] or [Class B] classes, your starting action dice are reduced to one-half of normal (round up).

It feels a bit off, but it grows it's teeth back by level 6 and sharpens them a bit from 16 on, so what the heck.
3474  Products / Fantasy Craft / Re: SOUND OFF: Potential Iconic Classes/Banned Actions Changes on: March 24, 2010, 05:58:29 PM
Penalties run at 1/4 the value of the symetical advantage. A flat -1 to starting action dice with no escape clause would also be (-1.0).
Seriously? It seems like that would come up a LOT more often than Achilles' Heel.

a) Achilles Heel is only -.5.
b) When Achilles Heel does trigger you can end up dead real sudden-like Wink.

Or did you mean an action die penalty could have been used in the core spread of Origins more, and Achilles heel less?
3475  Products / Fantasy Craft / Re: SOUND OFF: Potential Iconic Classes/Banned Actions Changes on: March 24, 2010, 05:50:28 PM
With some minor thought I would like to present a Species Feat, Level 1 only:  
Cut From Different Cloth:  Chose 1 base class, this class is now iconic for you.

Or does that knock the penalty down too far?

Actually that's wildly underweight for a feat. In the scale where tier 1 species feat is about 2.5 design points, iconic class of you choice is only 1 point (aka about 40% of a tier 1 feat). It's basically buying off the -1.0 of having iconic classes in the first place.

Hmm. IF feats were brought into the discussion as a solution, you might have one that reduces the iconic class penalty to only -1 action die as part of a larger package if benefits the feat provides.
3476  Products / Fantasy Craft / Re: SOUND OFF: Potential Iconic Classes/Banned Actions Changes on: March 24, 2010, 05:44:44 PM
Rep is like XP - it's an infinite resource, and its also something that you can ignore if you want.

Infinite resource or not, when its distributed wildly unevenly to players you get problems. BIG ones. Players don't care about infinity, they care they are wet noodle compared to the player next to them. Being at 75 rep when most of the table is at 150, no amount of "reputation is infinite" philosophizing is gonna fly Wink. What are you gonna tell them? "You'll get to 150 someday, about the time John has 300 or so..."
3477  Products / Fantasy Craft / Re: SOUND OFF: Potential Iconic Classes/Banned Actions Changes on: March 24, 2010, 05:32:44 PM
Sure, but the perception of how it works - that you "have to" be that class, is what's making this an issue. The problem isn't the rule mathematically - the problem is people hate the rule.  Smiley

*shrug* By that standard no style of penalty will satisfy those folks - its the trigger that pisses them off, coupled to any penalty mechanic with the teeth to be called a 1 point drawback. Since they can't get rid of the trigger, they're looking for a penalty with no teeth.

3478  Products / Fantasy Craft / Re: SOUND OFF: Potential Iconic Classes/Banned Actions Changes on: March 24, 2010, 05:19:38 PM
What about a penalty to legend that's not a percentile?

It literaly doesn't matter how a reputation penalty is applied - if its applied each time you gain rep in any fashion its going to accumulate because rep doesn't reset.

Action dice reset and vitality resets (if you don't die). XP penalties were some of the MOST reviled of all penalties in D&D and rep penalties are functionally in the same category.

Think of it this way. In play, would you groove on an ability that let you spend 2 action dice at the begining of a session to gain double reputation for that session? Me, I'd JUMP at that opportunity, leap headlong into that deal. Buy rep (permanent benefits) with action dice (constantly refreshing resource)? Hell yeah. Which tells me me a 50% rep penalty as alternative to -2 action dice is hideously more punishing.
3479  Products / Fantasy Craft / Re: SOUND OFF: Potential Iconic Classes/Banned Actions Changes on: March 24, 2010, 05:04:01 PM
So, in either case, you're still dealing with a penalty that sticks with you.

No penalty worth the name 'penalty' fails to stick with you.

The question is do you want a penalty that accumulates?

*edit* *Looks up at Alex's post* Lol. Jinx!
3480  Products / Fantasy Craft / Re: SOUND OFF: Potential Iconic Classes/Banned Actions Changes on: March 24, 2010, 04:18:09 PM
Penalties run at 1/4 the value of the symetical advantage. A flat -1 to starting action dice with no escape clause would also be (-1.0). The thing is the escape clause is trivially easy to trigger - play to type for 3 whole levels and then never look back. That's all it asks of you.

Shooting people in the Reputation is funny, since the way the Iconic Classes penalty appears in the book (unlike it's D&D cousin, LA) specifically doesn't penalize you in a fashion that accumulates over time. You are down a couple of dice and you move on. Action dice reset - finishing with 0, 1, or 5 of them last time everyone got together to play doesn't carry over. Losing rep is losing rep forever - the penalty you suffered last adventure is still with you, and the one before that, and the one before that. Yo uaren't X behind youe peers, you are X times the number of adventured behind and that gap just grows wider and wider.
Pages: 1 ... 230 231 [232] 233 234 ... 364


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.13 | SMF © 2006-2011, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!