I for one welcome our new Megacorp overlords...

All I ask is that you fix Grapple

Is it likely that we'll see Spellbound this GenCon?

[Wallace]

Resuming after fast-forward...

After silencing the watchdog, the Heroes pass through the portal into the darkness beyond...

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Wallace

Sainrith

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I'm nervous about adding more to a Unit stat block, which is why I just ignored DR when doing conversions, and I have the view that mass combat is separate from general adventuring.
To me the exercise was to have an abstract system and I am not sure if the idea of conversion between NPC stat blocks and Battlefield units ever came up. Converting from a Mass Combat Unit to an NPC block is not to difficult but the more I look it is harder going from NPC to Mass Combat Unit, which is why the system was always abstract.

Let's continue along with your thoughts are you thinking about just adding in Resilience and Resolve to the Unit stat block?
Or are you going to split up Resilience into Fort/Ref/Will? What about other skills?

As a GM, I can make any NPC I want using the NPC creation rules. The problem I would want solved is an easy way to eyeball an NPC block and convert it readily to something that can function in the constructs of the Mass Combat abstraction. I'd consider that a major requirement, even if it's as hand-wavy as XP total / 20 = force (note that we already have a formula for calculating Force for individual Special Characters, what we don't have is a formula, or formula + set of modifiers, to approximate what a stat block would produce as a mass combat component.

To me, the NPC stat block already exists, so the question is more about adding a Mass Combat Unit component to the existing NPC stat block than migrating pieces of the NPC stat block into a Mass Combat Unit stat block.

Since Glory = the Renown threshold for acquisition, I don't see any reason to make it tied to any sort of check performance ability, especially since we already have solutions for virtually any check we might have to account for. Need saving throws to adapt to a wizard going battle mage on your hindquarters? Use Resilience, add bonuses for relevant saves (Con for Fort saves, Dex for Ref, etc). Need to determine if the sentries notice the sneaking PCs? Use Notice (if a Sig. Skill) or Competence if not.

One reason why we might want to think about DR as a component to the Force Calculation is then you now have an easy solution for when players decide they want to start buying heavy armor for their shock troops or whatever, in a way that deviates from the assumption of what Light/Medium/Heavy Infantry is armed with, etc.

Units don't have any saves listed, which means that they would have to be added to every stat block.
Why not just use Force. It represents the strength of a Unit. Make a Force Check DC 15.
Then you could also use Glory against mind effects like becoming Frightened.

No offense intended, but that seems backward to me. The stat blocks for the units I'm looking for already exist, it's the abstraction into a mass combat system that does not. Similarly, Resilience and Resolve (or Competence for units without Resolve as a Sig. Skill) already exist, they already work within the context of various individual-level unit abilities (like the Wight's soul draining attack) that I'd be looking to replicate in a mass combat -- why not use what already exists rather than try to stretch the Force concept further?

Presumably, the set of base unit types would eventually have stat blocks associated with them, as I can't imagine a GM thinking "oh, cool, I'm sure I'll never have any need to handle fights with these same units outside of mass combat"

Units don't make Fort Saves so it makes it a bit redundant, instead have something like:

Chill of the Grave (Supernatural Battlefield Trick): Win or lose one enemy unit with an equal or lower Force than you is destroyed. At the end of the battle, gain an additional unit of this type for each enemy unit destroyed by this ability. You may use this trick until you have succeeded with it once per battle.

I'm not sure why units can't make Fort/Ref/Will saves, doesn't that open things up much easier in terms of porting abilities? My reasoning for porting the save straight from the individual Wight block is basically to prevent a guaranteed Wight explosion. It seems more interesting to me to build Save compatibility in early since they will certainly have to save against spells like Entangle

I kept the Wights as a small unit (20) and listed as Special similar to the Medics, both because it fits a need for me personally (in my home campaign, the bad guy army happens to have 20 Wights in their army) and because keeping them as a smaller unit seems vital to maintain any kind of balance. At 20 Wights, it might be very reasonable to think they're just as powerful on a battlefield as 100 medium infantry.

I guess my question is now "How do I go from Wight to Wight-force?"

Wight (Medium Undead Walker — 70 XP): Str 10,
Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 12; SZ M (1×1, Reach 1);
Spd 30 ft. ground; Init III; Atk III; Def II; Res IV; Health VI;
Comp II; Skills: Search V, Sneak X; Qualities: Damage reduction
2, feat (Night Fighting), killing conversion
Attack/Weapons: Claw II (dmg 1d6 cold; threat 19–20),
Chill of the Grave (soul draining attack II: Fort DC 15 or die
(standard character), lose 1 action die and 10 max. vitality
(special character); upgrades: supernatural attack (claw))

What implications does DR have for Force calculations?

Night Fighting = +1 Force in night battles

My guess

Wight Cost 20 Glory 3 Force 3 Chill of the Grave, +1 Force in night battles Special Undead, 20

Chill of the Grave (supernatural battlefield trick): Win or lose, one enemy unit must make a Fort save (DC 15) or be destroyed. At the end of the battle, gain an additional unit of this type for each enemy unit destroyed by this ability. You may use this trick until you have succeeded with it once per battle.

[Skeletal:]

Skeletal: Force drops by 1 (min 0), cost increases by 1 and you gain the following Traits: Undead, Cheap and Immunity (Volley)
Risen: Force drops by 1 (min 0), and you gain the following Traits: Undead, Cheap, Devour

Undead gives the normal abilities:

• Light Sensitve drops Force by 1 in Brightly Lit area (Daylight)
• Light Spells hurt, Dark spells heal
• Immune to disease & poisons

I think I'm onboard with a Light-Sensitive drops Force by 1 (Mirrored presumably by +1 force in night fighting for Darkvision / Night Fighting feats)

Not sure I agree that Skeletal reduces Force by 1, though I agree it should to Risen. What if we get clever and say Skeletal reduces Force by 1, Min 1 vis Min 0 for Risen?

As for Conversions a trick like:
Conversion (Battlefield Trick):If you destroy or disperse an opposing unit, you may gain an additional unit of this time after X rounds of combat, where X is equal to your Force. You may use this trick once per battle.

As worded, that's violently powerful, but doesn't it also require the ability to apply two tricks to a battlefield roll (since most unit destroy/disperse functions come from tricks in the first place?

Additional draft ideas for battlefield tricks (some for Units, others for PCs)

Ploy (battlefield trick): You may choose to use one of the following skills when making the next opposed Battlefield check during the same Battle: Blend (Wis), Bluff (Int), Impress (Cha), Intimidate (Str/Wis), Ride (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), or Survival (Wis). You may use this trick once per battle.

Hearts and Minds (battlefield trick): The Leader distinguishes himself on the battlefield, impressing friend and foe with an act of great valor. The character gains 1d4+Legend in Reputation. You may use this trick once per battle.

Dig In X (battlefield trick):  Win or lose, construct hoardings and other temporary defenses, granting the defender a +X bonus to Battlefield checks in this Front. This unit’s force is set to 0 for the remainder of the battle. You may use this trick once per battle.

Never Say Die (battlefield trick): A single target unit that has been Destroyed in this battle may make a Will save (DC equal to 5 + (5 x target's Force). With success, the target unit is Dispersed and may not be return to this battle. This unit’s force is set to 0 for the remainder of the battle. You may use this trick once per battle.

Shield Wall Formation (battlefield trick): Units with shield formation training employ large shields and are trained to use overhead shield walls to blunt the impact of missile fire, counting as if their Force were 1 higher for purposes of Volley battlefield tricks. You may use this trick until you have succeeded with it once per battle.

Sicken (extraordinary battlefield trick): Win or lose, one enemy unit of your choice must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + this unit's Threat Level) or become Sickened for the next Battlefield round.

Fear (extraordinary battlefield trick): Before the Leaders roll their Battlefield checks, one enemy unit must make a Will save (DC 5 + 5/Frightening grade) or be Dispersed.

Finish the Job (battlefield trick): One enemy unit that has been Dispersed must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + this unit's Threat Level) or be Destroyed instead. This unit’s force is set to 0 for the remainder of the battle. You may use this trick once per battle.


Playtest/Extension Questions:

What is the effect of Size in Battle/Force calculations? How should units constructed with Large or Small-sized creatures change the baseline?

How could we potentially apply Rogue Templates to these basic unit types?

How to handle some supernatural effects and conditions, e.g. should a unit of Ghouls be able to sicken or paralyze a susceptible unit? How about Wights and other creatures with Killing Conversion?

Some conditions might imply unit conditions, especially Entangled, Fatigued, Frightened, Shaken, Sickened, Stunned.

Something I'm going to try out in playtest: Conditions with Grades (like Fatigued and Shaken) will generally impact a unit's Force rating by 1/grade. Conditions that apply a flat modifier (like Entangled or Sickened) impact Force by 1/each +-2

[Minor proposed changes:]

[Hopefully-Permissible Thread Necromancy?]

Some playtesting and additional fiddling results

Minor proposed changes:
Make the -1 cumulative penalty apply to consecutive Battle rounds where a Leader has made Battle or Rally checks

When hiring Mercenary units, use a Haggle check with an asking price = (Cost + Risk & Incentive modifiers) x 10 s (see Table 2.12: Persuasion and Coercion, p.75, for Risk and Incentive modifiers.

Major proposed changes:
(Optional) Battle Strategy & The Fog of War

(Optional: When the GM determines the Commanders have had time to prepare a Battle Strategy) Before the battle begins, the Commanders make opposed Battle Strategy (Tactics, Int) checks, with each Commander applying modifiers to his Battle Strategy check according to his knowledge about his Opponent, his Own Army, and the Battleground (Modifier range: None (-10), Poor (-4), Basic, (+0), Good (+4), Excellent (+10)). The winner of the opposed Battle Strategy check gives a Strategy bonus to his Army's Battlefield checks for that battle equal to +1 plus an additional +1 per 4 by which he wins the check.

Rationale: This roll is an abstraction for forcing an enemy into an unfavorable position, acquiring intelligence about an enemy's plans and movements, and other methods of setting the battlefield in a general's favor. Additionally, it gives potential intermediate objectives for PCs to go do (e.g. Go infiltrate the enemy camp so we can learn their plans / go scout the land / drill your troops. etc) between Battles.

Rallying the Troops
The battlefield is a frightening place, with death and destruction everywhere. Under the stress of battle, many creatures abandon their army’s cause for one much more immediate: self-preservation. A warrior who begins to succumb to fear progresses down a slippery slope. Only a charismatic leader can bring such a creature back into the fray.
An eligible Leader may attempt to rally any one Dispersed unit during a single Battle Round. One Leader cannot attempt to rally more than one unit during a single Rally Phase. A commander who attempts to rally a unit, regardless of success, may exercise command and perform any other actions during later phases of the Battle Round, however the Rally counts towards the penalty for cumulative Battlefield rolls

To rally a Dispersed unit, a Leader present in the same Front makes a Morale Check for that unit, see Table 7.27: Morale for the base DC and add 2 x Threat Level. If the check is successful, the unit rallies and returns to the front on the next Battle round. If the check fails, the unit remains Dispersed until the end of the current Battle.

Rationale: Seems like a reasonable integration of something that makes sense, the existing rules for Morale checks, and giving leaders something else to be able to do. Alternately, a more complicate path may want to consider making a distinction between Dispersed and Routed unit condition, where Routed troops are eligible for Rally, but Dispersed are not. For now, I opted to keep it simple and treat any Dispersed as potentially targeted by a Rally

I can't read this thread and not think of
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvZgwtpPmLY

For the past 2 years, I've been running a campaign based in the old Bloodstones lands modules from early 2nd Ed AD&D, but essentially severed from anything else FR and dropping in replacement cultures and priesthoods as I see fit, which doesn't matter to the players.

Features the course of a human assassin, third son of the dead duke, as he tries to regain his duchy, another, the giant-eagle riding elven sage who has been pouring over an infernal text since capturing it from the Ruins of Dur Basta in the Cleansing of Black Spur, a dwarven mine-rescue expert and hammer-master, along with occasional guest starring roles from the goblin master chef (and conjurer) who has a contract with a senile dragon, the ogre martial artist looking for meaning of life, krieg-lumpkin bin dusseldorf, dwarven nerd priest, the pech luck priest with mafiosi tendencies, and others.  Guest star players make life fun.

When the dwarf's player commented "I'm starting to feel like John McClain over here" I knew I was doing it right

So this just happened tonight, and was amusing enough I must relay it:

Our intrepid heroes, notably featuring a gunpowder-packing dwarven mine rescuer, found themselves locked in mortal combat with some troglodyte fire worshipers (including an Alpha shaman and acolytes with Death Throes(Fire)).

The dwarf, the tank of the 3-man team, waded into battle, to discover the downside to his Hammer Supremacy when surrounded by acolytes, killing one and then engulfed in flame. Being the good player he is, he asked if he should make damage saves for his vulnerable items, notably the gunpowder. Some of the gunpowder explodes, hurting the dwarf but killing two other acolytes adjacent to him -- setting off THEIR death throes, which, you guessed it, set off the remaining gunpowder.

Somehow the dwarf survived all this, plus the ensuing battle with the shaman and his lava wyrm, but given the laughter at the table it's a surprise we managed to wrap the adventure up tonight. The dwarf, we have determined, is now hairless and beardless, singed, exploded, but won't be buying a drink for some time after telling the story...