I am watching a series called 'Persons Unknown.' Man can I see the potential.

I just think that the concept of using guns as a crutch in a game like this is very limiting.  I use the template I created for guns and hardly even look at the list.

It could be cool depending on how they do things.  Since people appear to be interested in gadgets; they could introduce gadgets like that found in Men In Black or they could follow the narrative suggestion like you pose.  I would not use it but it could be interesting.

I currently use Gurps material such as Black Ops.

Martial arts as presented in the 2.0 or FC book works just fine for a game.

Similarly, for SC3, reducing the gear section to generic firearms would annoy me to no end.

Your complicated martial arts thing works for your table, great. It would annoy mine to no end. Similarly you may be fine with generic weapons, my table and I are not.

If I want exacting and detailed martial arts, I'll play or make a game dedicated to the martial arts genre and world.

I think that both needs can be accomidated by having a simple template with examples.  In the case of firearms stating that "a 9mm has a particular damage type and weighs from this to this" and then giving a specific example allows for someone to come to you as the GM with an idea for a weapon their character would carry and, using the template would make it easier for the details to be worked in as opposed to having to hunt that information down.  For myself I would rather have the template as opposed to the long list

Why do you want to spend prep time making up firearms and gear rather then prepping missions? A detailed gear list is far more useful then a generic list. Writing up weapons is far harder then you seem to think (go look in the New Guns thread). Especially since Crafty isn't telling us the formula for converting ballistics to game stats. It doesn't need to be as long as the one in SC2.0, but it needs to be far more then just generic guns.

I was not aware that crafty was not giving out the formula.  But that is okay since with a little reserach I made my own.  It did not take me much in the way of prep time either; I just came up with the template and made the players do the math.

I said it in another topic but I am going to say it again since it is a huge part of the genre.
I want a system for handling memory manipulation.  Falsifying or distorting memories, repressing memories, implanting memories.
Not only that but multiple personalities or sleeper agents.

Are you thinking of a gadget like in Men In Black or were you thinking about something else entirely.  Sonething like a drug induced brain wipe?

I have split this thread as this discussion is in depth enough to drag the original post off topic.

As I have said, your concerns are noted, rgpandrade. And I reiterate that SC3 will not be 500 pages long, and that means some things are by necessity - pretty much everything - is going to have to be cut back. Speaking proportionally, it would follow you could likely not see 34 unarmed combat feats in the core book (outline is not finalized yet), but that doesn't mean they won't be out there eventually.  You've noted you don't care if some more came out later - that's a good thing cause we probably can't fit all of 2.0s stuff in there.

The dance is quite tricky with a game this old. We need to nail a genre that's been a big part of popular fiction since about WWII, accomodating all sorts of styles (lots of intrigue, a single bullet kills to jumping out of the way of explosions caused by orbital mind control lasers). For example, while you really like martial arts but don't appear to care for much detail on guns or cars, there are plenty of other folks who go both ways. And we have to serve both masters with one game that for a whole lot of reasons cannot be the same size as 2.0.  Such is our challenge

I do agree with you the sidebar on creating approximations of a martial art using the existing feats is useful and would likely stay in. Anything that helps people see the system in practice is a Good Thing in our book. And we're not going to just put 3 unarmed combat feats in the book. But the level of detail and what is core vs. what comes later has to be decided looking at things as a whole.

One other thing from your first post - you ask for a template on feats. Like spells, I'll come out and tell you there just is no template. While a small portion of our system is formulaic (like Origins), most is just structured (like classes and feats) or narrative/unframed (such as Narrative Control or Cheat Death). Non-formulaic stuff is built as much by designer "gut," examination in context of the play environment, and understanding of other existing mechancial constructs as it is by any numerical calculation. Ultimately, we're not computer programmers, and that's why many folks remain happy to pay us to bring some of our artistry combined with structure to provide fair and balanced rules. But you can see the templates we use in any new Mastercraft unarmed combat feat: 1 benefit + 1 stance on one feat in the chain, and 1 benefit +1 trick in the other 2 feats in the chain. So even if SC3 doesn't deliver the exact level of detail on martial arts straight out the gate, you can certainly feel free to raid the stuff you need from SC2, tweak to fit mastercraft and drop in License to Improvise and get a pretty good approximation for your table's needs

Thank you for your response.  I will wait for the material to come out and not retire my 2.0. just yet if ever.

Martial arts as presented in the 2.0 or FC book works just fine for a game.

Similarly, for SC3, reducing the gear section to generic firearms would annoy me to no end.

Your complicated martial arts thing works for your table, great. It would annoy mine to no end. Similarly you may be fine with generic weapons, my table and I are not.

If I want exacting and detailed martial arts, I'll play or make a game dedicated to the martial arts genre and world.

I think that both needs can be accomidated by having a simple template with examples.  In the case of firearms stating that "a 9mm has a particular damage type and weighs from this to this" and then giving a specific example allows for someone to come to you as the GM with an idea for a weapon their character would carry and, using the template would make it easier for the details to be worked in as opposed to having to hunt that information down.  For myself I would rather have the template as opposed to the long list

[quote author=rgpandrade link=topic=3662.msg73666#msg73666 date=1283125032

I Guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.   What it ultimately comes down to is Options like I said earlier.  I want my options and anything less would make me not want to play.

Fair enough but this is exactly the debate that Alex was talking about 
[/quote]

Well; considering that I disagree with most of your points and considering the fact that I pointed out some flaws in your rationale and considering the fact that I have had exposure to both military and civilian H2H this is not really a debate.  Also the fact that you lumped things like Dim-Mak (Death Touch) and wire fu with things like Pressure Points (Vital Point Feats) also tells me that we might be on 2 different pages and makes me question whether or not we are looking at this the same way.  That being the case this is not really a debate but a difference in play and GMing styles which ultimnately means Options....Like I said earlier.  I want my options when it comes to Reality Based Martial arts and I am a staunch believer that they can be listed in the Main book without creating some seperate material that cheesily clumps them all together with Dim Mak.  Not that I would be opposed to such a book mind you I just think that the level of hoakiness you may be thinking about does not fit into the way I run and play the game.  Which is currently supported by the Feats section in 2.0 as well as the section on page 186-187.

Howdy rgpandrade,

Here is the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program
Is probably the best hand to hand program that the U.S. Government runs.  Even those who achieve the Black belt 1st degree in this system have spent less time training than most of the blue belts in a jujitsu/judo school.  I would be hard pressed to even give them any of the hand to hand feats presented in any of the previous books.  Most US government run organizations simply do not pursue lengthy H2H training for their agents.  I think the BAB and Athletics skill, and the unarmed forte cover what is learned here just fine.
Now this is just if you want to talk about reality.
Once we through reality out the window well than we do have to consider things such as wire-fu, chi, death touches, pressure points, ect... Not to mention many people want to play those sort of games in an espionage setting.

In your post you also used a link to validate your point.  However there were other things that may have been missed.  Particular Belts required particular ranks.  Also Marines need to maintain a level of fitness at all times meaning that need to continue training.  I can see where, looking at the hours one might say that this is a shorter time then in standard martial arts but one needs to look further to see that the time required is considerable higher when one considers rank requirements as well as specific class taking requirements as well as the physical conditioning requirements that are a day to day part of any military person’s life.  These things are; in my opinion, not covered by waving the BAB and Athletics wand.  If it works for you then right on but it does not work for me.

Living in San Diego I know plenty Marines.  They really don't spend much time doing H2H stuff.  Nor do they stay all that fit.  Usually fitter than someone else in the same age group but trust me they are not all star athletes.

I Guess we are going to have to agree to disagree.   What it ultimately comes down to is Options like I said earlier.  I want my options and anything less would make me not want to play.

Howdy rgpandrade,

Here is the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program
Is probably the best hand to hand program that the U.S. Government runs.  Even those who achieve the Black belt 1st degree in this system have spent less time training than most of the blue belts in a jujitsu/judo school.  I would be hard pressed to even give them any of the hand to hand feats presented in any of the previous books.  Most US government run organizations simply do not pursue lengthy H2H training for their agents.  I think the BAB and Athletics skill, and the unarmed forte cover what is learned here just fine.
Now this is just if you want to talk about reality.
Once we through reality out the window well than we do have to consider things such as wire-fu, chi, death touches, pressure points, ect... Not to mention many people want to play those sort of games in an espionage setting.

In your post you also used a link to validate your point.  However there were other things that may have been missed.  Particular Belts required particular ranks.  Also Marines need to maintain a level of fitness at all times meaning that need to continue training.  I can see where, looking at the hours one might say that this is a shorter time then in standard martial arts but one needs to look further to see that the time required is considerable higher when one considers rank requirements as well as specific class taking requirements as well as the physical conditioning requirements that are a day to day part of any military person’s life.  These things are; in my opinion, not covered by waving the BAB and Athletics wand.  If it works for you then right on but it does not work for me.

Howdy rgpandrade,

Here is the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program
Is probably the best hand to hand program that the U.S. Government runs.  Even those who achieve the Black belt 1st degree in this system have spent less time training than most of the blue belts in a jujitsu/judo school.  I would be hard pressed to even give them any of the hand to hand feats presented in any of the previous books.  Most US government run organizations simply do not pursue lengthy H2H training for their agents.  I think the BAB and Athletics skill cover what is learned here just fine.
Now this is just if you want to talk about reality.
Once we through reality out the window well than we do have to consider things such as wire-fu, chi, death touches, pressure points, ect... Not to mention many people want to play those sort of games in an espionage setting.

I personally disagree that BAB and Athletics cover what is learned just fine.  Knowing Marines who were taught HTH in Basic and beyond there are things that were taught to them that is not covered by the items you choose.  I can see if others, yourself included want to do that sort of thing but the option for those of us that do not should be included in the main book and not relegated to a supplement.

I want my choices just as you want your simplicity and I do not feel that the two are mutually exclusive.

There is also this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapap

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambo_(martial_art).

Ultimately what this comes down to is options; You want a simplier option and I want custimization options.  I think we should both get what we want and they both need to be in the main book.

You know....I hate this topic....I am discovering more that I have to view, read and reread.  LMAO

Welcome; please let us know how your urban fantasy game turns out

I am not real sure how I feel about that.  I tend to use a Cooperatve method for Character creation and also tend to like the Talents and Specialities as it allows for detailed customization.